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Author Topic: ARES will not be called out  (Read 762 times)

WA7ZAF

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ARES will not be called out
« on: February 16, 2020, 09:51:52 PM »

So I was just looking at the threads about how ARES operations look different depending on where you are located and what your served agencies think of "hams."  In my area, we have been told to never mention "ham radio" while meeting with local officials and that if we must discuss our hobby we should only use the term amateur radio.  The local served agencies have been significantly soured to the idea of ham radio by a local club who attempted to dishonestly represent themselves as the local ARES group.  In fact, we have been told that the local emergency responders would never call ARES in the event of any emergency.

That brings me to where we have finally come as a group who has a passion for radio communication and a strong desire to serve in our local community.  Our county SAR group has welcomed us in as "communications specialists" to assist in their efforts.  They have identified a need within their group to have a team of knowledgeable communicators to assist with installing, programming, maintaining, and upgrading their communications equipment.  We have been enthusiastically invited to join the SAR team with full membership rights to use all licensed frequencies under the county sheriff's office and all frequencies shared by MOU with the sheriff. 

This has been great news for our group.  In addition to our responsibilities to maintain the equipment, we have been asked to construct and operate a SAR dispatch center in the near future.  The icing on the cake though, is that we were told that we are welcome to mirror county dispatch capabilities in our home shacks if we felt a desire to do so.  They did say that the equipment to do this would be provided if we chose to accept it. 

I would personally prefer to install my own gear so I don't have to worry about any possible liability or the need to allow for inspections or that one day I may have to remove and return it wit or without notice.  This brings me to a question.  Our county is still using standard narrow FM with no trunking or encryption.  Can anyone recommend a decent, inexpensive, part 90 radio for UHF and VHF that can be easily programmed at home?  I have been looking specifically at the Kenwood TK series radios and some from Vertex Standard.  I would like to have a minimum of 32 channels and programmable using a Windows PC.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2020, 10:05:45 PM by AF7FQ »
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KB8VUL

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Re: ARES will not be called out
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2020, 10:36:59 PM »

The TK and Vertex stuff isn't bad.  I would prefer Motorola CDM radios but I work for a Moto dealer.
As far as programming, if you are looking to mirror what the county is doing, I would see what they have and then ask them to program what you buy as opposed to using their gear.  That way you have access to what THEY want you to hav access to and when they set it up for you there is no question down the road about how you have gear on their frequencies.  They programmed it so it's OK.

Another thing I would look at is limiting the number of guys with a setup in their homes. 
Obviously they are going to want a couple of you,,, but when you get 20 guys all trying to play dispatcher, it can turn into a bit of a mess.
A better plan might be to pool resources in a couple ham shacks where guys live close to each other and the ham shack is separate of the rest of the house.  That way you can get together and operate in shifts from one location.  Maintaining the setup, generators and the like can be shared as well.
 
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WA7ZAF

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Re: ARES will not be called out
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2020, 10:53:29 PM »

Thanks for the reply.  The Motorola stuff really isn't an option.  The SAR group wants us to become their only radio maintenance team so we will determine what is programmed and how it is done.  As for people stepping on each other as dispatch, once we are activated, one dispatch would be appointed, whether it is one of our team manning the SAR dispatch console, or, if nobody is available to come in, one of us would operate from home until relieved by another operator. 

Right now the primary base radios for the SAR are Motorola CDM 4500 radios with CDM 1250 rigs in the trucks.  HT 1250s, BK P400/150s, and M100s are the field radios.  We have been tasked with taking over programming and standardization of all of them.  The only trouble is the Motorolas.  We aren't sure if we will be able to get licensed for the programming software.  For now they are programmed by a local comm shop. 

Another reason that I am not leaning toward Motorola for my personal dispatch station is cost.  I could probably set it up for half the cost using anything but Motorola.  I am not a subscriber to the idea that "you get what you pay for" when it comes to Motorola either.  The NIFC has been betting the lives of firefighters on the quality and reliability of Midland and BK radios (as well as Motorola) for decades.  I believe that any quality manufacturer (Kenwood, BK, Vertex, etc.) would serve my purposes.
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KB8VUL

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Re: ARES will not be called out
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2020, 04:05:57 AM »

If you are buying new radios, yes Motorola costs more.
If used, it's not as big of a difference.
As far as software.
Motorola will sell anyone programming software for their radios.
The local Motorola shop can assist you with this

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KG7LEA

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Re: ARES will not be called out
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2020, 07:14:11 AM »

Language is very important. ARES implies use of just the amateur radio bands and these may be of little use to emergency managers and other served agencies. But amateur radio communicators are of great help augmenting agencies and NGOs who have their own commercial radios. I like to think that I am a volunteer who knows how to use a radio rather than a radio with a volunteer attached.
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W1MOW

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Re: ARES will not be called out
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2020, 02:44:22 PM »

As a retired LEO (USAF OSI, CSP), current Paramedic, and Emergency Manager, I would ask for a copy of the authorization from the Sheriff's dept to operate on their freqs. Since they have already had a prior bad experience with "Hams", I would limit the number of people (civilians) that can operate on their channels from home. (Personally, I would never allow that to happen from an law enforcement standpoint.) All it would take is one or two incidents to sour them against you, not to mention the legalities and liabilities. Once it becomes public knowledge that you have that privilege, it will attract wrong types. I would talk to the Sheriff and his Dept Comm officer before doing anything, and get it in writing.

Now as a P.E. who designs systems, I would recommend Kenwoods. Easier to program than Motorola, costs less, and they will sell software to anyone. (Through local dealers, get friendly with one, most are a great resource.) Unless Motorola has changed in the last 6 months, it can be a challenge to get them to sell you software. (The Sheriff's Dept maybe able to help you.) If your going the Motorola route, CDM-1550's & HT-1250 can be had relatively inexpensively. The only concern would be the CPS. (Software) Be advised some Motorola software phones home, and they sometimes will notify the software license holder that it's been installed. If it's installed too many times, they will cancel the license.

Good luck.
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The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt - Bertram Russell (1935)

So not much has changed in almost 90 years!

KN6GST

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Re: ARES will not be called out
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2020, 05:53:23 PM »

I guess its all about "where you are at"...in the big metropolis's areas, HAM will be used by ARC and other ARES groups that have organized, but large police and fire agencies mostly operate on 800 MHz and are trunked. So there is no communication on the VHF systems in these large cities. The city or county corp yards i.e. street depts etc will no doubt still be on Vhf and be in communication with their county OES depts. Of which the local HAM groups should try to make them selves available.
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KB8VUL

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Re: ARES will not be called out
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2020, 08:52:03 PM »



 Unless Motorola has changed in the last 6 months, it can be a challenge to get them to sell you software. (The Sheriff's Dept maybe able to help you.) If your going the Motorola route, CDM-1550's & HT-1250 can be had relatively inexpensively. The only concern would be the CPS. (Software) Be advised some Motorola software phones home, and they sometimes will notify the software license holder that it's been installed. If it's installed too many times, they will cancel the license.


I'm sorry but what are you talking about?
Go back up and read the first line in my post.... the one that says I work for a MOTOROLA dealer.  I believe that I can speak from a little bit of authority when I say that they WILL sell programming software for most if not all radio families.  There MAY be some question on the APX software.  But 95% of that is asking for system keys, and not the programming software.  The software keys that allow programming of radios on a customer system are property of the customer and NOT for sale by Motorola.  They will sell you blank keys to be programmed by the system owner, but will not issue keys to someones system for ANY reason other than the owner of that system.  Now that being said, if you are going through a dealer, the dealer has to have enough standing with Motorola (there are different tiers of shops) to sell the software to the high tier radios, or for that matter the radios them selves.  There are a number of Motorola shops that can't sell high tier radios, or that can only sell high tier to certain agencies. 

But for CDM / HT Jedi series, and the MotoTRBO family of XPR radios, and the lower tier radios, any body can purchase the software from Motorola. 
So, I am sorry but I believe that you have been misinformed.
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W1MOW

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Re: ARES will not be called out
« Reply #8 on: February 18, 2020, 10:14:48 AM »



[/quote]

  The software keys that allow programming of radios on a customer system are property of the customer and NOT for sale by Motorola.
[/quote]

I am not going to get into a long debate over this, maybe you should read the Motorola EULA. They have been known to  on occasion aggressively enforce it.
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The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt - Bertram Russell (1935)

So not much has changed in almost 90 years!

WA7ZAF

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Re: ARES will not be called out
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2020, 03:26:23 PM »




  The software keys that allow programming of radios on a customer system are property of the customer and NOT for sale by Motorola.
[/quote]

I am not going to get into a long debate over this, maybe you should read the Motorola EULA. They have been known to  on occasion aggressively enforce it.
[/quote]

And this is EXACTLY why I'm not interested in Motorola equipment.
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KB8VUL

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Re: ARES will not be called out
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2020, 08:55:26 PM »

Oh, I absolutely agree that Motorola WILL go after anyone bootlegging their software.  Which makes me wonder if you are using anything that Microsoft, McAfee, Norton, or a number of other software companies.  They do that too.  And I would guess you do because NONE of the current commercial radio manufactures have programming software that runs on Linux.  But yes, I know what the EULA says.... it's just like Microsoft.
There is no debate here.  But Kenwood's agreement is no different.  You still can't buy one copy and put it on every computer you see fit to install it on unless you are a dealer.  Dealer licenses ARE a bit different.

And as far as system keys being a reason that you will not buy Motorola gear. 
YOU have ZERO reason to have a system key to ANY system that is not yours.
If the system owner wants to grant you access, then they will.  And I got a news flash.  Any current Motorola trunked radio system requires not only a key but a unique and activated ID, regardless of the radio it's used in.  If you clone an ID, the system can recognize it and brick your radio.  And the ONLY way to recover the radio is send it back to the factory.  And that is NOT a Motorola thing... that is part of the P25 standard that the systems are designed to operate to.  So your Kenwood P25 will die the same death that a brand new Motorola APX will if the ID you program into it is not a legit ID and the full security suite is enabled.  Not to mention that the radio will operate in a very odd way if the full security suite is not implemented and the system has the inhibit feature disabled.  I will not go into it, but when you start hearing talkgroup traffic from a TG that isn't programmed into the radio, know that you have a cloned ID.  I will say that as the legacy P25 radios are being replaced and system owners are implementing 2 factor system authentication where the radio ID is linked to a hard coded radio ESN those that don't match, don't have access.

So crying that Motorola is a horrible company and they enforce their EULA leads anyone seeing you complain about it question your motives. 
And if you really don't like them... maybe in addition to NOT using their products, you should really draw a hard line and refuse to use ANY technology they have invented.  Like CTCSS, DMR, DCS, mobile radios, portable radios (HT's), space communications, cellular telephones, GPS navigation, Apple computers (MC68000 processor), and HDTV (done under General Dynamics, owned by Motorola at the time).  SO have fun with that.  And like you said, I am not here to debate, I ENCOURAGE you to draw a hard line and take a step back into the stone age.  It may get a bit boring on car rides with no car radios (Gavin created the FIRST broadcast radio receiver for the automobile) but you will snub your nose at all those that would enjoy the evils of such a horrible company. 
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WA7ZAF

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Re: ARES will not be called out
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2020, 09:40:48 PM »

I think that you are jumping far too deep into the conclusion end of the pool here.  I never said that I hate all that Motorola stands for and want to boycott all Motorola derived technology.  I'm just saying that I don't want to fool with the overpriced software and iron fisted attitude of a company when there are other options that are far more end-user friendly.  I mean, if I want an HT1000, I have to jump through hoops to get it programmed but if I want an amazing radio that does all that I would ever ask of it and more, I can buy a Kenwood TH-F6a and program it with Chirp for free and never look back.  Motorola has its place but for me and my purposes, there are far better and more user friendly options.  I'm sorry that you are taking this personally as if I called your baby ugly but to many hams, Motorola is truly an ugly baby for good reason.
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W9FIB

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Re: ARES will not be called out
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2020, 02:39:51 AM »

As an end user, I learned a long time ago there are other things besides Motorola. And I never looked back.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

KB8VUL

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Re: ARES will not be called out
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2020, 03:47:43 AM »

Sorry, your statements are in line with those that believe that THEY should have access to system keys to public safety radio systems.
It goes back to the "just in case I need it" thought process.  If that was not what you were implying then I was out of line.  I hear a lot for the folks that want a fully operational radio on state wide systems claiming they as tax payers own it, thing is, the nuclear arsenal is taxpayer owned as well.  So should Bubba have the keys to launch nukes?  Yes, it's different but the mentality is the same.
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W1MOW

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Re: ARES will not be called out
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2020, 06:53:09 AM »

You will notice that NO one is arguing with you over system keys. If you go back to the original post you will see that AF7FQ wrote:
 
"Our county is still using standard narrow FM with no trunking or encryption.  Can anyone recommend a decent, inexpensive, part 90 radio for UHF and VHF that can be easily programmed at home?"

So no system keys would be required. And by the way I agree with you over the availability of system keys.

Frankly your attitude is why a lot of of Consultants, P.E.'s, End Users, and Amateurs stay away from using or recommending Motorola equipment or services. It's not the quality of the equipment, it's the cost and the attitude of both the company and it's dealers.
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The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt - Bertram Russell (1935)

So not much has changed in almost 90 years!
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