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Author Topic: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list  (Read 4705 times)

WA9AFM

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2020, 07:11:27 AM »

Bob is normally the final presenter at Contest University in Dayton.  One question that is always asked is 'what's the best rig'?  His response is usually something to the effect 'which ever radio suits your needs and operating interests'.  Keep in mind, the Sherwood list in receive characteristics, not transmit.  It also doesn't consider the 'bells and whistles' factor on each rig.  Bob's list is a great place to begin, but there are other factors to keep in mind.
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W1VT

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2020, 07:30:49 AM »

I've found that I have an excellent opportunity to work SSB DX when a station goes from simplex to split operation.
I've often worked the DX first when they do that.  Even when it was obvious I had little chance of breaking the simplex pileup.
I suspect a lot of operators aren't very good at setting up split operation.

Zak W1VT
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K0UA

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2020, 10:20:57 AM »

There is an old saying  "when in doubt, C4"  meaning when in doubt which weapon to deploy, C4 is always a good choice. Just blow the heck out of everything.

Reference radios: "when in doubt, 7300"  Meaning While the 7300 may not be the top dog, and of course it isn't, it is an under $1000 radio, it is a good choice when you are overwhelmed with choices. I have two of then and think highly of them, as well as a 7610.

Unfortunately Noise floor is a totally meaningless metric now for 99% of all operators. They will NEVER see that noise floor in our day and age of RFI. The man made RFI noise floor has been rising so fast in the past few years that the rigs own noise floor is so far below it that it is meaningless. Before the invention of the switch mode power supply, the noise floor of a reciever may have made some sense, but no more.
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73  James K0UA

W1VT

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2020, 10:25:30 AM »

The noise floor of my Heathkit HR-1680 built in 1977 was totally adequate for operating from Lihue Kauai on 10 meters.
The following year I helped perhaps a dozen hams complete their Worked All States award. 
HF receiver sensitivity has not been an issue as long as I've been a ham.

Zak W1VT
« Last Edit: April 15, 2020, 10:29:41 AM by W1VT »
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N8FVJ

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2020, 09:09:45 PM »

There is not a bad transceiver made today with the big three- ICOM, Yaesu and Kenwood. The best deal is the IC-7300. It performs.
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KX2T

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2020, 06:27:45 AM »

I think Rob Sherwood makes his list for reference material on today modern HF radio's not as a buying guide. If you look at what he owns he has his own personal reasons why he pics the radio he has not because its on the top of his list plus if you look at the list its rated by mainly one parameter not several but from what I have seen is most hams really do not fully understand what these numbers mean to begin with.
You can do allot of chest beating on the air that you own which radio is at the top of this list but in reality the radio may be far more confusing for you to operate to begin with but bragging rights are what some just go by to begin with. Bottom line its more on how your able to use the radio and its features that will make operating more enjoyable.
Rob also has given many talks plus has placed much info on the internet on how and for what reasons to chose an HF radio which make a whole lot of common sense but here again its like asking someone if they did read there radio's manual, most do not. I heard three guys talking on 75 meters the other night, they all owned FTDX101D radio's, they were not working any DX stations, they seemed to rag chew there either all day or night but it was very important that they all owned a list topping radio yet none of these hams ever opened up there manual to get to use some of the functions of there rigs, they just pushed the buttons and played with controls. Maybe I am losing something here but even before I purchase any radio I pop up the manual on line, read threw it and try and understand the logic of its design and the control flexibility but clearly were the radio ranks on some list is not really why a buy a radio in the first place besides most of the top 20-25 radio's on Robs list will all work extremely well for even some of the most competitive of stations yet for rag chews on 75 meters any radio will do just fine.
The IC7300 is the deal breaker for under $1K, packs a wicked punch and a great RX/TX combo, yes there will always be better but that radio upset the apple cart, it became a radio that almost every ham could afford and give more than just average performance plus was easy as pie to use!
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AF5CC

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2020, 10:31:05 AM »

The Icom 706MKIIG comes in higher on Sherwood's list than does the Yaesu FT1000MP, but I think you would have to look hard to find a contester who says the 706MKIIG will do better under contest conditions.

73 John AF5CC
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W9IQ

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2020, 10:34:45 AM »

I can tell you from personal experience it is not a good rig for a moderately popular IOTA activation. An IC-7300 would beat them both out in that environment.

Icom really reset the market with the IC-7300. It caught the others with their pants down - still no response in over two years.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

AF5CC

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #23 on: May 13, 2020, 10:38:39 AM »

Unfortunately Noise floor is a totally meaningless metric now for 99% of all operators. They will NEVER see that noise floor in our day and age of RFI. The man made RFI noise floor has been rising so fast in the past few years that the rigs own noise floor is so far below it that it is meaningless. Before the invention of the switch mode power supply, the noise floor of a reciever may have made some sense, but no more.

Which brings up another point-which radio best handles the noise at your QTH?  IMD range is useful, but doesn't mean much if you have a S8 noise level you can't get rid of.  So things like noise blankers and noise reduction becomes important when choosing a rig.  DSP noise reduction seems to work better on atmospheric noise, knocking down the static a bit, which can reduce listening fatigue.

The noise blanker is usually the tool to take out the RFI crud we get some powerlines and all of these switching power supplies in every consumer electronic product.  Some radios have better noise blankers than others.  While the Icom 7300 and Kenwood TS590SG both have good receivers, their noise blanker performance, at my QTH, was rather underwhelming.  I found that the NB in the recent Yaesu rigs worked better on the RFI crud I get.  The experience at your QTH could be totally different.  Or you may be fortunate and live out in the country where this isn't an issue.

If you can borrow a couple of the different models you are interested in from local hams, and get the RFI to cooperate when you have the borrowed rigs there, it can go a long ways to finding which radio best handles the noise at your QTH. It often is trial and error.

73 John AF5CC
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AF5CC

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2020, 10:39:33 AM »

I can tell you from personal experience it is not a good rig for a moderately popular IOTA activation. An IC-7300 would beat them both out in that environment.

Icom really reset the market with the IC-7300. It caught the others with their pants down - still no response in over two years.

- Glenn W9IQ

Do you mean the 706MKIIG or the FT1000MP?
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W9IQ

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #25 on: May 13, 2020, 10:43:29 AM »

I took my 706 with me not anticipating the pile ups from the minute I transmitted until I turned it off each day. Just a constant din of stations. I chose poorly.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KX2T

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #26 on: May 13, 2020, 04:14:09 PM »

The 706 would be like a barn door wide open compared to the ole MP's but when I sold my last Mp and tried out the kenwood TS590s that was an eye opener, the 590S dusted the old MP and that was with NB mods, adjusted the gain between IF stages, installed IRC roofing filter and adjusted the gain on its boards so it would not drive the crap out of the next stage but that 590s just tromped on the MP. Then after that I bought a K3 placed it side by side next to the 590S and this was before the SG and I just could not warm up to the K3 audio on SSB or even CW. After that I tried the FTDX3000 which did have about the same RX but its selectivity and noise reduction was an improvement but after three plus years I had to try a 7300 to see what all the ruckus was about, well it was bought as a backup rig and lets say the 7300 became the main radio and the 3000 the backup, ultimate selectivity on the little Icom was 20db better than the Yaesu, on CW with the 3000 I would hear key clicks a KC away from a 20db over S9 station switch to the 7300 and at 1kc that there were no clicks at all, I didn't need the first stage pre amp at all except maybe on 10 and six meters, the Noise Blanker and Noise reduction was way better and the NR didn't affect the audio were you would get that underwater sound. I didn't want to believe that the Yaesu which I paid $2400 new and the Icom which at that time was $1300 was dusting the Yeasu all across the boards. Hell yes the 7300 was a game changer!
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W9IQ

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2020, 04:24:07 PM »

The 7300 puts superheterodyne receivers into the history books.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

AF5CC

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2020, 10:51:37 AM »

The 7300 puts superheterodyne receivers into the history books.

- Glenn W9IQ

Although the superhets are still at the top of Sherwood's list, both in terms of 2khz IMD dynamic range, and LO noise.

73 John AF5CC
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VK5ISO

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #29 on: May 16, 2020, 12:05:23 AM »

Dan Sherwood has done a lot of work to build his repository of test info. It's at http://www.sherweng.com/table.html for the few that are unfamiliar with it. He ranks rigs by ability to operate with close spaced interference. That might not mean a lot for a casual operator though. I'm not a contester so I am wondering what parameter would be the next in importance were I sorting the list to choose a rig.

I think everything that needed to be said regarding noise floor was said: it is irrelevant in our present environment.

 I do remember however listening to shortwave on an old JRC 545 a couple years ago, when we had a statewide blackout in South Australia, and I was absolutely floored by just how silent the receiver was (and this is 20 year old technology).

I think the main metrics we should be using are  cost/performance ratios where "performance" stands for whatever is most important for your particular style of operating.

Dj0ip (viz. www.dj0ip.de)  did some very nice work in 2019 to assess cost / dB of DR3 performance.

I am unable to paste the images of the charts here, but you can peruse Dj0ip  charts here (keeping in mind these are 2019 prices):

https://www.dj0ip.de/sherwood-forest/performance-cost/

You could do exactly the same calculations with any other metric that was significant to your particular situation (noise floor if you are alone on an island). Then for bragging rights, I don't know how to calculate that one!

Now, to quote Rob:

Quote
What do you need in the way of close-in dynamic range? You want a number of at least 70 dB for SSB, and at least 80 dB for CW. A 10 dB safety factor would be nice, so that means you would prefer 80 dB for SSB and 90 dB for CW. Now there are approximately 20 radios that meet that specification.

In my own case, CW is my only mode of operation and I have never been interested in competition, so while I am quite relaxed about DR3, I attach a lot of importance to good noise blankers and noise reduction. I also look for radios that are reliable, have decent ergonomics and I try to avoid "niche" brands.
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