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Author Topic: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list  (Read 4708 times)

W9IQ

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #30 on: May 16, 2020, 04:01:43 AM »

The 7300 puts superheterodyne receivers into the history books.

- Glenn W9IQ

Although the superhets are still at the top of Sherwood's list, both in terms of 2khz IMD dynamic range, and LO noise.

73 John AF5CC

Could that be because SDRs do not have an LO? Paradigm change...

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 04:08:15 AM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

VK6HP

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #31 on: May 16, 2020, 04:35:29 AM »

Glenn

I don't think it's anything to do with a paradigm change, just a legacy term ("LO Noise") which really relates to reciprocal mixing dynamic range.  With low conversion jitter fairly easily obtained, SDRs are typically very good in this regard but, as the new generation superhets clearly demonstrate, other architecture can excel as well.

The religion associated with SDRs and superhets is an odd quirk of amateur radio.  As a designer of radios and radiometers, direct sampling and other over the course of a career, I've never encountered it in any other community.  And I don't think it does anyone a service to just blindly recommend an IC-7300 as the answer to everyone's application need!  As it happens, I like IC-7300s - particularly on a bang per buck basis.  But there are applications when other tools are needed: for example, two of a number of requirements in my situation steering me away from the 7300 are ultimate (out of passband) receiver blocking and a more respectable 6 m transmit IMD.

73, Peter.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 04:51:50 AM by VK6HP »
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W9IQ

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #32 on: May 16, 2020, 05:26:33 AM »

I understand, Peter. My response, posed as a question, was to see how engaged people are in this topic. My experience is that most seem to be consumers that just want to see some number on the top of a chart to ensure they are buying "the best" or to debate a statistic of precipice.

It is fun to point out, for example, that if you want the "best" in-band IMD3 spec, you should buy a single conversion superhet with good filters. This being proffered to people that never operate in a DX expedition or multi-operator contest station.

With that being said, we do need to adjust the test regimes and reports to provide meaningful data to consumers and engineers alike in this direct sampling DSP era. The proposed IFSS test is one such example that merits discussion. Once there is industry agreement on key metrics and procedures, the manufacturers can move forward with rewarded tweaks.

With regard to specific radio recommendations, I don't think that the select buyer will come on eHam to ask which transceiver to buy, A or B. This is nearly defacto evidence of an entry level buyer for which the 7300 is generally very well suited.

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 05:32:00 AM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K1FBI

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #33 on: May 16, 2020, 05:10:58 PM »

I remember when the FT1000 MP MKV was considered a great rig. If I had to go by that one magic column on the Sherwood list, I wouldn't even consider the rig.
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VK6HP

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #34 on: May 16, 2020, 10:21:34 PM »

Don Keith (N4KC) recently posted a wonderful, but ever so slightly exasperated, note on the state of internet radio comparisons in the TS-890S user group:

"I was just wondering if anyone in the group has had the opportunity to directly compare the TS-890 and the Swan 500C? I have a chance to purchase a TS-890 new or a Swan 500C that has been in daily use for about 50 years. The Swan apparently still works okay but the finals are original and only make about half power. There are also some cigarette burns on the cabinet and something unidentifiable has been spilled behind the meter. But I've also seen posts saying the 890 doesn't make full power on SSB when measured on a $20 wattmeter into an end-fed run of clothesline. That tells me the Swan might be the better rig. But I can't seem to find it anywhere on the Sherwood list so I cannot compare."

Most managed a laugh, and Rob even undertook to do better and see if he can get the Swan on his list.  I guess it appealed to me because it's similar in kind, and only a little different in degree, to some ham life on the internet :)

73, and Happy World Telecommunication Day,
Peter.

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VK2NZA

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2020, 01:35:41 AM »

Hi Peter & Glenn

Peter - had to laugh your reference re Don N4KC's TS-890  user group radio comparo!

I reckon -

  Buying the Swan is the obvious answer, more scrap value at the recycler when it goes belly up!

OR you could use it as a soap box to safely stand on and proselytize other operators of the best rig to purchase....dual use!

OR .... actually use it as a boat anchor when we are able to take the boat out fishing again, not so sure the IC-7300 is very capable at 10 meters....deep,  couldn't find that spec in Rob's list, a glaring error IMHO !

just my take.

Ross.
     
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AF5CC

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2020, 11:29:55 AM »


https://www.dj0ip.de/sherwood-forest/performance-cost/



That is a useful table.  As was pointed out, though, the most important thing is that YOU HAVE TO ENJOY USING THE RADIO!  If you are a DXer, you probably want dual receive.  That leaves out the 7300, but you also may want a bandscope, so that would leave out the FT1000MP. 

You also have to look at the law of diminishing returns.  After the dynamic range gets to a certain point, you probably won't be able to really tell much difference by getting additional dynamic range beyond that point, so spending extra money JUST to get dynamic range wouldn't be worth it.  However, spending extra money to get additional useful features for you would be worth it.  Also, getting trading a slight drop in dynamic range to get additional useful features could be worth it as well.

In my case, the Icom 7300 didn't work in the current setup I had, so I had to go a different direction, even if the dynamic range wasn't quite as good.  Another thing to notice on Sherwood's table is that the 7300's dynamic range really falls if you turn off the IP+,and Rob recommends not using the IP+.

73 John AF5CC
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K7JQ

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2020, 01:30:42 PM »


https://www.dj0ip.de/sherwood-forest/performance-cost/



That is a useful table.  As was pointed out, though, the most important thing is that YOU HAVE TO ENJOY USING THE RADIO!  If you are a DXer, you probably want dual receive.  That leaves out the 7300, but you also may want a bandscope, so that would leave out the FT1000MP. 


So many folks specify the need for a second receiver if you're a DXer. While it is a "convenient" thing to have, thousands of hams have made the DXCC honor roll with a one receiver radio. As long as the radio has VFO's A and B, you're good to go for split operation, and finding the location of stations working the DX with the push of a button to toggle between the two VFO's. The two receiver option is good for contesters monitoring a second band for openings and activity, and working SO2V. For the casual non-contesting ham on somewhat of a budget, the $$ spent on a two-receiver radio might best be put towards the antenna. IMO, many hams grossly over-buy a radio for their casual operations. But if money isn't an object, what the heck...go for it!

I'd definitely recommend a band scope. Big difference between it and tuning round blind.

73, Bob K7JQ
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VK5ISO

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #38 on: May 18, 2020, 12:46:34 AM »

K7JQ:

Quote
The two receiver option is good for contesters monitoring a second band for openings and activity, and working SO2V. For the casual non-contesting ham on somewhat of a budget, the $$ spent on a two-receiver radio might best be put towards the antenna. IMO, many hams grossly over-buy a radio for their casual operations. But if money isn't an object, what the heck...go for it!

I'd definitely recommend a band scope. Big difference between it and tuning round blind.

Couldn't agree more with you: I had a second receiver for a long time and realized that I never used it.  In 2020 a band scope is non-negotiable, it is just so convenient.

I must say, in aparte, that I have been very surprised, since  I have been a member of Eham by the number of hams  who are ready to spend $$$$ on transceivers with remarkable DR3 performance  and connect them to a long-wire antenna or a vertical antenna.

That sort of money is much better spent on a good tower  and a Yagi (or any directional antenna with gain, a Quad, whatever) and then whatever is left should go into the transceiver and not the other way round.

Then, clearly, the money one needs to spend on a good tower (including the foundations) and a tri or tetra-band from a reputable manufacturer will easily be 3-4 time what one spends on a transceiver, so maybe that is why. But the choice remains an irrational one ( I can only drive at 55mph, but I' still buy that Porsche!)

I can say in the forty-five years or so  I have been involved in HF that the biggest differences I have noticed in reception always came from antennas and never from receivers.

 I think every single radio I have ever had has had some defects (poor ergonomics, overloading, ringing filters, bad DSP, you name it) and you generally can work with it or live with it, but if you don't have a good antenna and it is not at reasonably high up, you may have the best radio on the market you won't hear a thing!

For those who are interested, the ARRL has a nice little brochure: "Antenna Height and Communications Effectiveness" with some interesting graphs illustrating elevation response patterns in function of height.

So the best advice I can provide to beginners is : forget about the latest transceiver, first, get the best directional antenna you can afford and put it up as high as you can without running into trouble (with the neighbors, the council and what not) and then see about getting  whatever  transceiver you can afford (and, ideally, try to live next to the ocean!)
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AF5CC

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #39 on: May 18, 2020, 11:39:47 AM »

Putting up a tower with a beam on it is a lot more effort than opening up the wallet and ordering the latest, greatest radio with the best specs.

You are definitely right in your thinking-put up the best antenna you can.  It will also make a bigger difference than the radio.

But then many hams live in locations where they cannot have tall towers and large antennas.  They may have to have indoor antennas, which probably have all sorts of RFI coming into them.  That is when you really need a rig with a good noise blanker and noise reduction.

As has been stated before, the best radio is the one that you enjoy using the most, and that allows you the make the most QSOs in the circumstance you are operating in.  There is no one best radio, because we are all operating under different circumstances, and have different requirements for our enjoyment of ham radio.

73 John AF5CC

Using a Yaesu FT450D and enjoying it!
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N5PG

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #40 on: May 30, 2020, 11:22:13 PM »

I remember when the FT1000 MP MKV was considered a great rig. If I had to go by that one magic column on the Sherwood list, I wouldn't even consider the rig.

Still is here  ;D
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K0UA

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #41 on: May 31, 2020, 09:34:03 AM »

There are many discussions like this. Another forum I spend a lot of time on is a tractor forum and two questions are asked the most by newbies:  Which tires do I need? and What transmission do I need?  The answers by me are always the same.  If you have to ask you need R4 industrial tires.  Because if you had any experience you would not have asked. because you are a newbie and don't have a clue what you want to do with the tractor, you by default need the generic R4 tire. Is it the best tire? Depends on what you want to do with the tractor. If you were going to plow an 80 acre field, then no it is not the best tire.

 For loader work on possibly dangerous  surfaces, then yes it is the best tire for that.  BUT because you asked, you have told us you are a newbie. Professionals don't have to ask.

 Same with transmission: You need a hydrostatic. Because if you had a clue what you were going to do with the tractor you would not have had to ask. You would have known.  Is the hydro the best transmission for plowing that 80 acre field, no, of course not, but since you are a newbie you need a hydro.  Easiest to operate, almost no learning curve, best for loader operation, and best for all around use, but not so good for some specific operations. 

How does this apply to radios?  It is the same thing.  IF you have to ask, you need a 7300. Period. Is it the best radio on the face of the earth?  Of course not. BUT since you have to ask, then that is the one you need.  You are a newbie, you don't have a clue what you want to do with the radio and what niche operation you will want.  The 7300 is superior in the "bang for the buck" field, and does everything well. BUT it not the best contest radio on earth or the best DX chasing radio on earth or has the best specifications over all radios. But it is good enough, and it is extremely easy to use, has a short learning curve, and the price is low enough that most people can afford one, and for many people may be the last rig they will ever need, while offering a plethora of modern features that will keep most people satisfied for a long long time.
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73  James K0UA

N1BBR

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2020, 05:19:48 AM »

[quote author=W1VT link=topic=128776.msg1170135#msg1170135 date=1583585718
Dual receive is also great for CW DXing, as finding stations giving reports is an effective way of tracking the listening frequency.

Zak W1VT
[/quote]

Zak - can you expand on this?
Most rigs today have an A/B but I don't think this is what you mean by "Dual Receive".
You may be referring more to a sub-rcvr?
In any case - how does using a 2nd rcvr help in listening to signal reports?
Can't one just as easily find the same info by listening around with one rcvr?

Tnx in advance
N1BBR
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KX2T

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2020, 08:50:28 AM »

I just love the comments here about buying the radio that tops Rob's list! First off if your buying an FTDX101D, TS890S or IC7610 and running it into an end fed antenna at 20 ft and expect there will be times you really need those high end RX spec you are kidding yourself. Now if you have a stack of monoband beams or one of these newer big beam antennas with forward stacked monoband elements at 50 plus feet up, phased dipoles or verticals on the low bands then maybe some of the better radio's might make some sort of difference in how its really going to be able to pull in a single station during very crowded band conditions or in use during a multi op contest station but here again you may never see much of a difference between all the top rigs on that chart.
First off any well engineered contest station already has some sort of band pass filter networks installed or even today multi op stations use not only in the RX mode but TX band pass filter networks that are used on the TX side as well. Most of the radio's in the top 25 rigs on that list have ultimate channel selectivity besting 110db so the bottom line is how well the radio works with the user interface is more likely going to make the real differences in those type of stations. Other than that it is really about Bragging Rights than anything else but if you ever take the time and read Rob's in depth reviews of some of his talks about what is really needed for most all operating situations there are a good 30 to 40 radios that will do just fine but at that point it comes down to being able to operate the radio more efficiently in the heat of the battle than how good the specs are between the better rigs.   
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W1VT

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Re: Choosing a rig and Sherwood's list
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2020, 10:19:44 AM »

Yes, I mean the sub-receiver, which allows me to listen to to two frequencies at once.  Typically I'll listen to the DX in the  left ear and tune around with the sub receiver and listen for people calling the DX in the right ear.  Then,  after a station finishes a contact, I'll call on the frequency last used by the station calling the DX.  Many times a DX station will work a couple of stations  on the same split frequency before tuning to a new listening frequency.

Zak W1VT
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