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Author Topic: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.  (Read 2004 times)

K7JQ

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Re: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2020, 10:32:17 AM »



Don K1VSK,
But you gotta admit that if a ham radio operator that wants (visible) antennas in a new-build home in today's pervasive HOA/CC&R environment, the choices are limited vs many years ago.




That hypothesis has never been quantified - while HOAs are gaining in market share, many with antenna limitations, no one has ever demonstrated hams living in HOAs can/cannot obtain waivers for installing an antenna even when limitations are stated. As only one example, over 70 hams reside in my HOA. None have been denied permission to erect an antenna despite having stated limitations.

Regardless, there are a dozen communities in my local area with hundreds of new homes of every conceivable size, type, dimension, price, etc... with no HOA and no one has ever demonstrated where, how or if we are any different in that respect than anywhere.

This “I can’t” nonsense doesn’t pass the laugh test.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I did state "choices are limited vs many years ago". 70 hams in one HOA, I believe, is quite unusual, unless it's a HUGE community ;). Some, like yours, are more antenna liberal. I might have six or seven hams in my community of 1,000 homes, with only a few of us HF active with stealth antennas. I do know for a fact that any community here in the Phoenix/Tucson AZ areas built in the last 30-35 years are under HOA's/CC&R's, and the overwhelming majority are not antenna permissive. Architectural Committees have the authority to grant waivers, but getting one of those is a crapshoot (but is possible).

But that isn't the point...it is what it is. We all have freedom of choice to live according to our priorities. Not every community is willing to accept them, and has legal limitations...a fact of life as we know it. At this point, you have to adjust to it, and compromises have to be made. Lamenting the situation doesn't help.

73,  Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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Re: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2020, 12:54:30 PM »



Don K1VSK,
But you gotta admit that if a ham radio operator that wants (visible) antennas in a new-build home in today's pervasive HOA/CC&R environment, the choices are limited vs many years ago.




That hypothesis has never been quantified - while HOAs are gaining in market share, many with antenna limitations, no one has ever demonstrated hams living in HOAs can/cannot obtain waivers for installing an antenna even when limitations are stated. As only one example, over 70 hams reside in my HOA. None have been denied permission to erect an antenna despite having stated limitations.

Regardless, there are a dozen communities in my local area with hundreds of new homes of every conceivable size, type, dimension, price, etc... with no HOA and no one has ever demonstrated where, how or if we are any different in that respect than anywhere.

This “I can’t” nonsense doesn’t pass the laugh test.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I did state "choices are limited vs many years ago". 70 hams in one HOA, I believe, is quite unusual, unless it's a HUGE community ;). Some, like yours, are more antenna liberal. I might have six or seven hams in my community of 1,000 homes, with only a few of us HF active with stealth antennas. I do know for a fact that any community here in the Phoenix/Tucson AZ areas built in the last 30-35 years are under HOA's/CC&R's, and the overwhelming majority are not antenna permissive. Architectural Committees have the authority to grant waivers, but getting one of those is a crapshoot (but is possible).

But that isn't the point...it is what it is. We all have freedom of choice to live according to our priorities. Not every community is willing to accept them, and has legal limitations...a fact of life as we know it. At this point, you have to adjust to it, and compromises have to be made. Lamenting the situation doesn't help.

73,  Bob K7JQ
It comprises around 25,000 people which is large and therefore  probably more representative than some small HOA. 

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WB2KSP

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Re: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2020, 06:09:35 PM »

The Geico commercial thread which was a humorous portrayal of over the top HOA's has morphed once again into the same all HOA's aren't like that or even most. As a ham, I wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood with multiple ham ops. That is unless the other operators ran VHF/UHF and did very little HF. I lived in an apartment building on the top floor overlooking the Hudson River. It was a nice location with three separate buildings. From a operations standpoint I found out quickly that an old colleague of mine who was also a active ham op lived down the hall from me. We both had antennas on the roof of the building and we were able to work things out (Going from novice to Extra over the course of a year or so helped out). I wouldn't want to live under those circumstances again. I recently found out that there are two ham ops, both with beams within a mile or two of my QTH. They have never caused me any problem. It could be that I've been almost a 100% CW op, although due to actvity levels over the past year or so, I do run the digital modes of FT4 & FT8. I'm not looking for a haven with other ham ops, nor do I want a neighborhood with a community station. All I will say is that the neighborhood which my mom lives in, in Tampa has stated that they would not allow any ham antenna to be constructed under any current circumstance and that speaks volumes to me.
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K7JQ

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Re: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2020, 08:38:10 AM »


As a ham, I wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood with multiple ham ops. I'm not looking for a haven with other ham ops, nor do I want a neighborhood with a community station.

David, I'm a little confused. This sounds counter-intuitive to what you want in your other posts. You want the right to erect antennas, yet now you don't want to live in a neighborhood more likely to attract, or currently have, other hams so they can also legally have their antennas...a "haven" for hams. So, if you happen to find the kind of modern home you're looking for, in an HOA that happens to allow antennas, you don't want other hams in that community? It seems to me that they would also find that community desirable. 

Maybe I'm missing the intent of your above statements.

On another note, I previously asked you that if you weren't a ham, would you still be adverse to living in an HOA/CC&R controlled community? In other words, you'd still feel your freedoms would be compromised? Haven't seen an answer yet.

73,  Bob K7JQ
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WB2KSP

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Re: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2020, 12:21:58 PM »


As a ham, I wouldn't want to live in a neighborhood with multiple ham ops. I'm not looking for a haven with other ham ops, nor do I want a neighborhood with a community station.

David, I'm a little confused. This sounds counter-intuitive to what you want in your other posts. You want the right to erect antennas, yet now you don't want to live in a neighborhood more likely to attract, or currently have, other hams so they can also legally have their antennas...a "haven" for hams. So, if you happen to find the kind of modern home you're looking for, in an HOA that happens to allow antennas, you don't want other hams in that community? It seems to me that they would also find that community desirable. 

Maybe I'm missing the intent of your above statements.

On another note, I previously asked you that if you weren't a ham, would you still be adverse to living in an HOA/CC&R controlled community? In other words, you'd still feel your freedoms would be compromised? Haven't seen an answer yet.

73,  Bob K7JQ
Hi Bob, Fair questions which I will try to answer. As to living with multiple hams as neighbors; I have had the experience of living with a ham as a neighbor both of us on the same floor at opposite sides of the building. At that stage of my life due to my unusual schedule (due to the type of work I did) it didn't make things impossible but it was far from perfect. It was at times like living in a constant contest environment where nearby transmitters cause interference to each other. We both ran 100 watts into a multitude of antennas. I lived with that issue for about 2 years when I was still in my 20's. I went from Novice to Extra while in the apartment. Otherwise with my friend having a general at the time whenever he operated I had to shut down my radio. Now lets talk about having multiple hams in a neighborhood. Say you are like me and run 100 watts into wire antennas. You have a neighbor either across the street, next-door or a few blocks away and he (or she) runs a beam with an amp. upwards of 1500 watts. How can I operate if they want to operate at the same time? I really cant due to fundamental overload of my radio. Where I live I am the only ham in my neighborhood but there are two hams that I know of  within a few miles of me. Both run beams and neither cause me any trouble. My antenna for 20 is a V up at 75 feet above ground fed by LMR-400 and my 80/40 V (which loads everywhere but 160) is fed by RG8X and is 60 feet above ground. Unless you really look closely you can not see my antennas from the street. What you can see is one of the tie down strings of my 80/40 V around a tree. As a group of citizens we are relatively few in number and I don't see any reason to live in a ham radio ghetto. As to your question about living in an HOA without a ham license, it depends. The original intent of Home Owners groups was to keep Blacks and Jews out of some neighborhoods. I know times have changed and there are few if any like that any longer. On the other hand I can not ignore the history in some parts of our country and the fact that my wife, an attorney, is African American and I am a retired broadcast engineer who is Jewish so, yes, I will be cautious. As an example, the HOA in Tampa where my mother lives is great, other than the no antennas rule. However, drive 20 miles in another direction and it's like a different and alien world. I've lived in a NY suburb my entire life and I love it here. However, taxes are extremely high here and finding a new (construction) home in a non HOA neighborhood is not easy.   
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K7JQ

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Re: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2020, 01:55:09 PM »

Geez...you've got a double whammy of discrimination possibilities, and I fully understand your and your wife's trepidation. However, I don't think you have to worry about an HOA using those practices today (at least hopefully not)...it's strictly illegal in every sense of the word. It would be more of the residents of those communities being discriminatory, and causing problems. Avoiding that would be research on your part to feel comfortable where you live. It's an unfortunate fact of life that this crap still exists. I'll never understand the way some people think. And today's political climate certainly isn't helping. But that's another story....

As far as ham radio goes, no matter where you live, there's always the possibility of an active ham living close to you. I'd imagine the safest way to avoid that possibility is to move into an HOA with antenna restrictions ;). But then you can't have antennas :-\, defeating the purpose. A double-edged sword to be sure. You've got some thinking to do, and get your priorities in order.

73,  Bob K7JQ

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AC7CW

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Re: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2020, 05:34:36 PM »

I'm in an HOA currently but they are not chartered to dictate how things look, only infrastructure. I read that agreement before I bought, that's for sure... However I recall at a previous home [with no HOA actually] I had an MFJ magloop up about 20' mounted horizontally and it allowed me to have lots of fun with an IC-730. I operated mostly 30M CW, this was before the digital modes. If I had an HOA problem I would put one of those in the attic and not look back. I might even put it up outside first to see what kind of fire it draws and if nothing then I'd put up a hexbeam and see what happens. Just 'sayin
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Novice 1958, 20WPM Extra now... (and get off my lawn)

W0AEW

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Re: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2020, 05:47:04 PM »

There's social distancing and ham distancing. I wouldn't live in any community that would have me for a member.  :P
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WB2KSP

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Re: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2020, 05:32:48 AM »

Geez...you've got a double whammy of discrimination possibilities, and I fully understand your and your wife's trepidation. However, I don't think you have to worry about an HOA using those practices today (at least hopefully not)...it's strictly illegal in every sense of the word. It would be more of the residents of those communities being discriminatory, and causing problems. Avoiding that would be research on your part to feel comfortable where you live. It's an unfortunate fact of life that this crap still exists. I'll never understand the way some people think. And today's political climate certainly isn't helping. But that's another story....

As far as ham radio goes, no matter where you live, there's always the possibility of an active ham living close to you. I'd imagine the safest way to avoid that possibility is to move into an HOA with antenna restrictions ;). But then you can't have antennas :-\, defeating the purpose. A double-edged sword to be sure. You've got some thinking to do, and get your priorities in order.

73,  Bob K7JQ


Thanks Bob, for understanding. I appreciate your comments.  Not to sway far from the discussion at hand, I agree with you about where we are in this country. As far as my eventual move goes, the answer will probably be to look for a neighborhood which will provide me with some leeway where my wife and I can live a happy life and not be prevented from making use of my ham license. I've been in contact with a agent in New Mexico of all places. It seems that there are many options in the Santa Fe area. It would be a major cultural move but it is something worth considering and New Mexico is not as common as New York in amateur radio land.
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N9AOP

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Re: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2020, 08:19:30 AM »

I live in an older section of the city and there are no HOA's and we all seem to get along just fine.  Not to say that there are no nosy neighbors around but they are not a bother.
Art
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K7JQ

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Re: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2020, 11:09:49 AM »

I live in an older section of the city and there are no HOA's and we all seem to get along just fine.  Not to say that there are no nosy neighbors around but they are not a bother.
Art

There's certainly nothing wrong with older neighborhoods...well kept, friendly neighbors, and for hams (or people who hate any restrictions), no HOA. The problem arises if one of your priorities is a new, or very recently built home with all the modern, updated construction techniques like digital wiring, insulation, brand new roof, HVAC, your choice of flooring, cabinets, exterior design, and other available upgrades offered by the builder. Basically, new, never lived-in everything. I know, there's also such a thing as remodeling ;). But some people just like "brand new". Unfortunately, along with the package comes HOA's/CC&R's. And for hams, the likelihood of antenna restrictions. As I've posted before, it's all a matter of priorities and compromise. No one can comment on or make those decisions for you.

73,  Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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Re: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2020, 11:58:21 AM »

. But some people just like "brand new". Unfortunately, along with the package comes HOA's/CC&R's. And for hams, the likelihood of antenna restrictions.

73,  Bob K7JQ
As I’ve said before, I continue to wonder how correct that is for two simple reasons:
1. Here, where people call it ‘HOA heaven’ which is a poor euphemism  for how ubiquitous they are, it’s still easy to find a new home of any description, location, price,... where no antenna limitations exist. In a former thread, I documented that,  and
2. No one has ever quantified if or how much of a disparity exists between HOA homes with antenna limitations and non-HOA homes. All we see here are perceptions and supposition.

Too many children grow up never being taught saying “I can’t...” is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
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K7JQ

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Re: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2020, 01:41:25 PM »

. But some people just like "brand new". Unfortunately, along with the package comes HOA's/CC&R's. And for hams, the likelihood of antenna restrictions.

73,  Bob K7JQ
As I’ve said before, I continue to wonder how correct that is for two simple reasons:
1. Here, where people call it ‘HOA heaven’ which is a poor euphemism  for how ubiquitous they are, it’s still easy to find a new home of any description, location, price,... where no antenna limitations exist. In a former thread, I documented that,  and
2. No one has ever quantified if or how much of a disparity exists between HOA homes with antenna limitations and non-HOA homes. All we see here are perceptions and supposition.

Too many children grow up never being taught saying “I can’t...” is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Well, Don, I did say "likelihood" ;), meaning that not ALL HOA's have antenna restrictions. So I believe that is a correct statement. Perhaps in your area it's easy to find new homes without restrictions. Not easy here. I can only go by the Phoenix/Tucson area where all new home communities have HOA's/CC&R's, overwhelmingly containing antenna restrictions. That's just a fact out here. How many will grant permission if applied for, I don't know. But in my 28 years of residence, I've driven all over (and shopped for) the newer built communities, and not a trace of visible ham antennas. If there are any, they're stealth, and totally out of sight.
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K1VSK

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Re: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2020, 03:08:23 PM »

. But some people just like "brand new". Unfortunately, along with the package comes HOA's/CC&R's. And for hams, the likelihood of antenna restrictions.

73,  Bob K7JQ
As I’ve said before, I continue to wonder how correct that is for two simple reasons:
1. Here, where people call it ‘HOA heaven’ which is a poor euphemism  for how ubiquitous they are, it’s still easy to find a new home of any description, location, price,... where no antenna limitations exist. In a former thread, I documented that,  and
2. No one has ever quantified if or how much of a disparity exists between HOA homes with antenna limitations and non-HOA homes. All we see here are perceptions and supposition.

Too many children grow up never being taught saying “I can’t...” is a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Well, Don, I did say "likelihood" ;), meaning that not ALL HOA's have antenna restrictions. So I believe that is a correct statement. Perhaps in your area it's easy to find new homes without restrictions. Not easy here. I can only go by the Phoenix/Tucson area where all new home communities have HOA's/CC&R's, overwhelmingly containing antenna restrictions. That's just a fact out here. How many will grant permission if applied for, I don't know. But in my 28 years of residence, I've driven all over (and shopped for) the newer built communities, and not a trace of visible ham antennas. If there are any, they're stealth, and totally out of sight.
I’ve seen only three towers while driving around here over the period of 10+ years. By comparison, while we lived up north many years ago where and when antenna limitations were rare, I saw a similar small number. A dubious comparison.

I can only describe what is available here and can assure you anyone who claims there are no new residential areas with no CC&Rs here is full of nonsense. Interestingly, HOAs remain more popular here.
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K7JQ

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Re: Speaking of nosy neighbors and HOA's.
« Reply #44 on: June 20, 2020, 09:33:11 AM »

[quote author=K1VSK link=topic=129921.msg1184490#msg1184490 date=159260450
I can only describe what is available here and can assure you anyone who claims there are no new residential areas with no CC&Rs here is full of nonsense. Interestingly, HOAs remain more popular here.
[/quote]

Let's qualify what a "new residential area" means. To me out here, it's a national or local builder that develops a single subdivision, or master-planned community comprised of several builders. They can be "cookie-cutter" or custom home developments. They *ALL* have CC&R's. Even purchasing a single parcel of land to have your own private contractor build a custom home might have CC&R's attached to it by the previous owner. Now, I'm strictly referring to CC&R's, whether or not they contain antenna restrictions or are enforced by an HOA. Any ham better check on it before buying, or they'll be SOL.

No "nonsense" on what I stated above. I guess you have different circumstances in Florida.

73, Bob K7JQ
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