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Author Topic: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?  (Read 1665 times)

AD6AD

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Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« on: October 26, 2020, 09:13:22 AM »

OK, I'll be the bummer, downer, bad guy and ask the obvious question:

Is SDR really ready for prime time? Is it worth the hassle and hoops we have to jump through?

I got mine installed after about 4 hours of false starts, rebooting, erasing everything,
re-installing, fine tuning, extra add-ons, and struggling with the new technology.
Worked FANTASTICALLY for a few hours.

Fired it up again and didn't work. Erased the files and repeated the process: Still no glory.
In the mean time, I can get a SWL radio for $30 and get about the same experience.

Got into the hobby due to promises of $30 dongles and easy set up.
Now, for anything that really delivers, they want $300 to $600!

What we NEED is a program that self-installs and walks you through the process.
We need standards, instructions that work, a guide book, timely feedback from professionals.

Please HELP!
I don't want to give up on this exciting technology, but for the Love of God,
get it to a stage where even an idiot like myself can get it working!
Does anyone know a sure-fire, solid installation process or simple hardware
that actually works?
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G8FXC

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2020, 09:53:32 AM »

I think the answer depends very much on what equipment you buy and what software you run. I've tinkered with cheap USB dongles and they all seem to be a pain - and I'm both a trained electronic engineer and senior software developer... I bought an SDRPlay RSP1A and hooked it up to a reasonable spec machine running SDRUno under a clean installation of Windows 10 and it works well and seems reliable. There is a learning curve - you don't run SDR to get the functionality of a basic single conversion superhet like Yaesu would have sold you forty years ago.

Is it worth the frustration? I guess that depends on how deep your pockets are. If you can afford to spend the multiple thousands of dollars that Yaesu or ICOM charge for their top of the range radios, then it probably is not worth the effort or frustration. Buy an IC-7610 or FTdx101D and you'll get an SDR radio packaged up to look like a traditional, if complex, radio. If your budget will not run to that, than a couple of hundred dollars on an SDRPlay RSP1A hooked up to a moderate specification PC will go a long way towards giving you the same level of performance and functionality. I initially set up my RSP1A to provide a high resolution panadaptor and second receiver to compliment my IC-7300 - now I increasingly find myself muting the receiver on the 7300 and using the RSP1A as the main receiver.

Martin (G8FXC)
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K6AER

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2020, 10:10:55 AM »

I guess the question is do you already have working ham equipment and a station set up or is this the first venture on the airwaves?
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AC2EU

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2020, 10:34:07 AM »

Some people and computers don't get along at ALL.
It depends on how you are with glitchy software. If you know what to do to coax it into working, then you are in  better shape than the guy who only knows "plug n play".

If you are the latter,  go with the Yaesu or Icom.

Too bad there weren't forums to read from the days when radio transitioned from TRF to Superhet!
I'm sure there were lots of growing pains and cursing the "new fangled" contraption then too.

VA3VF

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2020, 12:37:25 PM »

Quote
Some people and computers don't get along at ALL.

Right on!

I'm not a computer professional, but looks like I have enough luck that playing with software and SDRs are mostly problem free. I use RTL-SDR sticks, RSP, AirSpy SDRs.

That said, as long as I have the option, I'll not spend a few kilobucks on a black box. I'm all for SDR, but anything above $500 or so must run without a PC. My current radio is an IC-7300, to make the point clear. If I win the lottery I'll upgrade to an IC-7610, for example.
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VA3VF

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2020, 12:45:54 PM »

Quote
Please HELP!

Ok...what do you want to do?

If you want a transceiver, I cannot help. As I said in my previous post, I won't spend big bucks on a black box and potential expensive door stopper.

If it's RX only, and you already have an RTL-SDR stick, try SDR#.

If you have an AirSpy Discovery, try SDR# or SDRConsole.

If you have an RSP, try SDRConsole.

It's a tremendous help to have a recent vintage PC. How recent? For the hardware mentioned above, 5 years would be the oldest in my opinion.

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AC2EU

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2020, 01:15:43 PM »

There's HDSDR too.

VA3VF

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2020, 01:20:57 PM »

There's HDSDR too.

Yes, but it requires the user to know how to deal with the ExtIO, that may be too much. I use HDSDR, but I suggested the packages that are fully self contained, so to speak.

The reason I only listed SDR# for the RTL-SDR stick is that it has a batch file that does everything, including installing the Zadig driver.
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K4FMH

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2020, 01:46:10 PM »

OK, I'll be the bummer, downer, bad guy and ask the obvious question:

Is SDR really ready for prime time? Is it worth the hassle and hoops we have to jump through?

I got mine installed after about 4 hours of false starts, rebooting, erasing everything,
re-installing, fine tuning, extra add-ons, and struggling with the new technology.
Worked FANTASTICALLY for a few hours.

Fired it up again and didn't work. Erased the files and repeated the process: Still no glory.
In the mean time, I can get a SWL radio for $30 and get about the same experience.

Got into the hobby due to promises of $30 dongles and easy set up.
Now, for anything that really delivers, they want $300 to $600!

What we NEED is a program that self-installs and walks you through the process.
We need standards, instructions that work, a guide book, timely feedback from professionals.

Please HELP!
I don't want to give up on this exciting technology, but for the Love of God,
get it to a stage where even an idiot like myself can get it working!
Does anyone know a sure-fire, solid installation process or simple hardware
that actually works?

Clearly, you are frustrated. However, your position can be idiosyncratic to you, your computing background, and your goals. For instance, your comment, "In the mean time, I can get a SWL radio for $30 and get about the same experience." is patently false...to many, many others. Not to you but to so many others. Just see SWLing.com, for instance, for years of blog posts regarding SDRs. There are many other SDR-oriented webpages and blogs but Thomas Witherspoon's is one that immediately comes to mind.

You seem to be focusing on reception by a software defined radio rather than a transceiver. It's clear that a generic PC-based SDR (some don't need one) requires the user to understand a moderate amount of how PCs work (whatever the OS platform) and how they communicate with external devices. I will say that I, too, sometimes wish for "standards," but too tight of a standard-set and innovation is throttled back for sure. If you want "timely feedback from professionals," you're talking about product support. Yes, you can get that. But you're gonna pay much, much more. Nonetheless, I also dispute your figures. You can spend $300-$600 (or x10) but you don't have to. IF you'll install an adequate antenna.  A ~ $100 investment in, for example, an SDRPlay RSP1A will get you into very good quality reception by SDR. And Mike Ladd's videos and blog posts (see SDRPlay's website; https://www.sdrplay.com/sdrplayhamguides/) can walk most competent amateurs through the paces of using the RSP line of SDRs from simple listening to decoding NAVTEX and WEFAX images!

I appreciate your frustration. But your nominal experience as reported here do not make or break the case for SDRs. Best wishes in reflecting on these matters and moving ahead in the hobby. You can do it...

73,

Frank
K4FMH

My clear answer is: yes, it's worth it. Even if you have to learn more about the PC you're using to process the IQ data from the SDR.
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K7LZR

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2020, 01:58:55 PM »

Oh yes it is ready for prime time. If not then the military wouldn't have been using it for decades already....

Some installations can be frustrating as you are experiencing, but they are in the minority and after you get it all working then I'm sure that you will get much enjoyment from it :).
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N6YWU

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2020, 03:36:14 PM »

SDR hardware is certainly ready for prime time. (I have several, including a couple Hermes Lite 2 network connect direct sampling SDR transceivers).

But current SDR software is mostly a joke.  Grandma can pick up and learn to play a game on her iPhone that has a lot more elements than most SDR apps.  Not so easy with SDR apps. 

Just getting the software to install is a often nasty gauntlet designed by programmers (like me!) and operating system developers who have almost no clue how to make it intuitive for normal humans to get stuff working.

Maybe some of the same programmers who made it nearly impossible to program a new HT using just the buttons led the way into SDR software UX design.

But it's worth it for me.  I'm having a lot of fun because I have decades of experience dealing with poorly designed software (some of it my own), and getting these heaps of code to actually do something interesting (and get on the air for Rx & Tx).
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 03:41:29 PM by N6YWU »
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KF6QEX

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2020, 03:42:28 PM »

Quote
Is it worth the hassle and hoops we have to jump through?
If it feels like it's pain, probably not. Get an old school, kicked to the curb, used, overpriced radio , connect it to a good antenna and get on the air! 

And it you want to play with an SDR radio, go over to http://www.sdrutah.org to get your SDR "fix" without the pain :)



 
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sdrawkcab daer tseb si txet sihT

AD6AD

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2020, 04:14:31 PM »

Hey, all EXCELLENT replies, folks and I am very appreciative.   :)

For the record, I am a ham general and my old ICOM HF rig just died.
I have antennas for 2, 10, 20, and 40 meters.
Thought I'd buy a cheap new rig, or wait to find a decent used one
for say $500, and while searching check out the SDR arena.

I thought maybe of buying an SDR with transmit abilities and feed that
into an amplifier, but I hear there are problems with matching and tuning
in such arrangements, so, once again, lost and confused.
(Sweet dream and flying machines in pieces on the ground!)

Again, it means a lot to me to see such thoughtful and helpful responses.
Big thanks. Sorry if I came across as a crybaby, ha, ha!
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KF6QEX

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2020, 05:14:23 PM »

Quote
but I hear there are problems with matching and tuning
in such arrangements, so, once again, lost and confused.
Unfortunately there are all kinds of words flying around.
From fact to fiction to opinions to tests to experiments and that's just on deciding the minimum number of radials :)
There are people out there that have trouble opening the cupboard to get to the peanut butter,  don't eeven start talking about opening the peanut butter jar itself.
Then they buy a radio and they are told they nedd an amp and a tuner this , that and the other.
If they are unlucky and can afford all this stuff theyend up with "equipment soup" they don't know what do do with and they start "having problems".
But enough about them.

You are better off deciding on a radio and looking around to see who is using which amp with it successfully , instead of the ones that couldn't get the peanut butter jar open...
In the meantime it might be faster to get your old radio fixed ....while you are making up your mind.
You never want to go crocery shopping hungry :)
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sdrawkcab daer tseb si txet sihT

N2DTS

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2020, 05:41:24 PM »

I am not really a computer guy but have had a boat load of sdr radios and used a bunch of programs with only one or two issues a long time ago with some radios and programs that did not mix.
A flex 3000 is a very good place to start at low cost.
The KE9NS software seems trouble free and you do not need a power house computer.
A $200.00 I5 desk top is more then enough.
I would skip the 8 bit and 12 bit dongle/radio things as they do not really work well in the real world.

You might not be happy using an 8 bit dongle on an old laptop.

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