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Author Topic: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?  (Read 1664 times)

N2DTS

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2020, 09:57:36 AM »

Wrong! the Flex 3000 and 5000 are quite good radios, even on CW.
They were poor on CW with the old software but with the new low latency software out now, done by KE9NS they are real time.
Computers have also got much faster and even a cheap older one has the latency low.
The 1500 uses USB and it useless if 500 ms delay is an issue for the operator, the 3000 and 5000 are firewire which is an unbuffered/polled fast wide bandwidth interface.

The 3000 and 5000 do have some spurs and phase noise has moved on to better places, but the radios are still good overall and a very good buy for the money.
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W6UV

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2020, 11:17:49 AM »

Wrong! the Flex 3000 and 5000 are quite good radios, even on CW.
They were poor on CW with the old software but with the new low latency software out now, done by KE9NS they are real time.

That wasn't my experience with the 5000, even with the new software. It might not be a problem with slow CW, but the latency was very noticeable to me at 20-30 WPM.
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K9IUQ

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #32 on: November 17, 2020, 05:12:36 PM »


That wasn't my experience with the 5000, even with the new software. It might not be a problem with slow CW, but the latency was very noticeable to me at 20-30 WPM.

Hey Jerry, you bring back many memories of my Flexradio 5K debacle which was well documented here on this forum by you, me, and many others.

It was not a good experience, the worst of my long ham career but I have moved on to better SDR's and have owned a FTDX101Mp for the last year. No more SDR frustration, just pleasure to run a radio like my Yaesu.

The Flexradio 5K was a pretty horrible radio and had many many frustration issues, not the least of the poor CW implementation. Does anyone but me remember the 160/80 mtr hardware xmit spur issues which Flexradio denied and refused to fix until K9IUQ came along and made a fuss???  ;) :D :D :D

Oh and the Flex 5K RFI issues which was cured by buying stock in Ferrite Companies. You could always tell a Flexradio 5K owner at the hamfests, he was the Dude carrying a huge bag of Ferrites........ I put ferrites on everything including my dog's Tail. It did cure the RFI.  LMAO

Only hard core Flex Lovers, Flex deniers, Flexradio employees or the Clueless would say the Flexradio 5K was a good radio....

Stan K9IUQ
« Last Edit: November 17, 2020, 05:24:30 PM by K9IUQ »
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N2DTS

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2020, 05:39:03 AM »

Software moves on, I have had two each 5000's amd 3000's and they all worked great at my station.

But it was not Flex radio that improved things, that is their weak point, they are really slow on software upgrades on all their stuff.

My 6400m is nice, but no mouse control? No band stacking registers?
Very slow, they may have a new model before they get everything working on the old one....
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K9IUQ

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2020, 05:58:52 AM »

Software moves on,

But it was not Flex radio that improved things, that is their weak point, they are really slow on software upgrades on all their stuff.


IMO Flexradio sells promises, and they are very good at it. Unfortunately their software promises never meet their software reality. The Flex 5K as you note is a good example. The Flexradio Software for that radio was the pits and after Flexradio abandoned the 5K another ham developer took over the 5K software and made it much better. Software moves on and hams move on too. I only owned the Flexradio 5K for 11 months and lost over $1K selling it. It was worth it to get rid of that turkey though. Like Software, K9IUQ moved on too, never to buy or even consider another Flexradio.

Stan K9IUQ

« Last Edit: November 18, 2020, 06:04:54 AM by K9IUQ »
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W6UV

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2020, 02:40:13 PM »

Hey Jerry, you bring back many memories of my Flexradio 5K debacle which was well documented here on this forum by you, me, and many others.

Hi Stan. Yes, I remember those times well, especially the stuff about Tim the Bulldog on the Flex forum. That stuff was a real hoot.
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NY7Z

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2020, 11:56:20 PM »

I have to agree with N2DTS.  The Flex 3000 and 5000 are great radios, especially for the money on the used market.  I've had all manner of HF radios over the years and now use only two, a Flex 3000 and a Flex 5000.  I had a Flex 6300 for awhile and while it was slick, the software was too limiting.  I also had an Anan 100D and it was a great radio as well. 

Flex 3000s can be found on the used market for around $700 and are worth every penny.  For even more bang for the buck, you can find Flex 5000s for $800-$1,000.  Both are 100W transceivers with built in ant tuners.  The KE9NS software really makes radios sing.

I use them on standalone dedicated Dell SFF i5 desktops I bought surplus from the local university for $100 each plus another $20 for good firewire cards. Running Windows 7, they run perfectly with no crashes or other issues. 

There is tons of documentation, how-to's, help files, tutorials, and forum posts answering every question and aspect of operating these radios out there for the Googling. 

So yes, it is worth the frustration.  Once I went SDR, I will never go back.  Btw, I still enjoy legacy analog stuff but only for the nostalgia. 
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K9IUQ

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2020, 05:30:24 AM »

For even more bang for the buck, you can find Flex 5000s for $800-$1,000.

So yes, it is worth the frustration.  Once I went SDR, I will never go back. 

That it is a question at all says it all. The Topic heading "Hard question: It it worth the frustration?" says all one needs to know about SDR's with computers running Windows OS.

If one enjoys frustration and headaches instead of operating than maybe it is worthwhile. When you own a SDR like a Flex radio with a PC running it, the radio itself becomes the hobby, not getting on the air and making Q's and having fun.

The real problem is the necessity of requiring a PC run the SDR. SDR's are NOT the frustration issue, the PC is.

Enter the standalone SDR like a Icom 7300/7610. Why oh why would anyone buy an outdated 11 year old USED Flexradio 5000 when for the same price you can buy a modern SDR like the 7300 and other knobbed SDR's. Yes these SDR knobbed radios would lack frustration, something that Flex Lovers seem to covet and enjoy..  ;) :D :D

Full Disclosure: I too have gone SDR and will never go back. But I own a Yaesu FTDX101MP which lacks the frustration level of owning a Flexradio.

Stan K9IUQ
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 05:35:39 AM by K9IUQ »
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W6UV

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2020, 09:15:34 AM »

The Flex-6400M and 6600M aren't too bad. Both of these have front panels with knobs and can be used without a PC.
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K9IUQ

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #39 on: November 19, 2020, 09:31:16 AM »

The Flex-6400M and 6600M aren't too bad. Both of these have front panels with knobs and can be used without a PC.

While I am not real familiar with those models I believe Flexradio had a Come to Jesus Moment a few years ago when the Icom 7300 hit the Dayton hamfest. Flex Lovers were full of derision for the 7300, the rest is history when the Icom became the best selling SDR ever. When that happened I believe Flexradio realized that the ham market wanted and demanded frustration free knobbed non PC driven SDR's and at a Value Price.. 

Hence Flex's Feeble effort with the 2 models you described. I say Feeble because I just looked at the price of those 2 Flexradio models and nearly fainted from laughing... OMG......

Stan K9IUQ
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W6UV

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #40 on: November 19, 2020, 09:58:07 AM »

Hence Flex's Feeble effort with the 2 models you described. I say Feeble because I just looked at the price of those 2 Flexradio models and nearly fainted from laughing... OMG......

Yes, their price is rather steep, probably because they support a bandwidth of 14 MHz, which requires an expensive FPGA to support that. I don't know if this is accurate, but heard somewhere that the cost of the FPGA alone was in the $900 range.

The Icom 7300 supports up to 1 MHz bandwidth, which requires less horsepower. The 7300 uses a Cyclone IV FPGA, which is closer to the $100 price point in quantity.

My next rig is probably going to be an Elecraft K4, which looks like a rather nice rig.

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N2DTS

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #41 on: November 19, 2020, 10:30:57 AM »

The Flex 3000 and 5000 can do things the Icom 7300 can not.
First off, the antenna tuners in the flex radios actually work.
The 5000 can do diversity with dual receivers, and the radio has loads of ins and outs, 3 antenna ports, RX ports, balanced audio input port, etc.
It can also do HIFI audio reception for those who like fidelity.
The 7300 cuts off the audio at 200 Hz.
The new software has pro audio tools, a 3, 10 or 20 band EQ on RX and TX and filters you can set to whatever you want, 20 to 20,000 Hz if you want, or 300 to 2200, or anything in between.

Both are still quite high up on the Sherwood chart.
Surely not the worlds best radio but one of the best buys in used SDR rigs.

I sold my 5000 for a 6400M which is nice, great performance, but the 5000 was better in some respects. PowerSDR is better in some respects.
The Icom 7300 has put a lot of downward pressure on used radio prices with its $1000.00 new price, but I still find the flex radios to have some advantages.
Flex software is still growing, the Icom is done.
The computer allows more flexibility and control, you just have to know how to manage windoze.

If you just want to plug a radio in and work it, rigs like the 7300 are fine.
If you want to control things, the computer based SDR's rule.



The new software has CW work fine for me.
 
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N6YWU

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #42 on: November 19, 2020, 12:05:59 PM »

The real problem is the necessity of requiring a PC run the SDR. SDR's are NOT the frustration issue, the PC is.

Actually, that probably depends on the technology you grew up with.
If you grew up before there were PCs, but used lab equipment with lots of knobs and buttons, yes.

If one grew up with an iPad, Mac/PC, mobile phone social media, and touch-panel household appliances, etc., figuring out how to work all those knobs and little buttons might be far more frustrating than communicating via yet another computer screen interface.
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N2DTS

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #43 on: November 19, 2020, 02:33:42 PM »

I am older, but would rather control most things with a mouse on a screen like Powersdr has.
That is one flaw with the new Flex M series, no mouse control on the standalone radio.
I dislike touch screens you HAVE to touch for everything, with loads of very small on screen buttons.
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K9IUQ

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Re: Hard question: It it worth the frustration?
« Reply #44 on: November 19, 2020, 04:04:21 PM »


Actually, that probably depends on the technology you grew up with.
If you grew up before there were PCs, but used lab equipment with lots of knobs and buttons, yes.

If one grew up with an iPad, Mac/PC, mobile phone social media, and touch-panel household appliances, etc., figuring out how to work all those knobs and little buttons might be far more frustrating than communicating via yet another computer screen interface.

Maybe, maybe not. I have always embraced New Technology. I started with a TRS-80 computer in 1978, ran RTTY on it. While working for $$$  I was an Industrial Electrician. The company I worked for started using PMC's around the time the original IBM PC came out. Shortly after that the PLC became born. I was educated at great cost by my company at Allen Bradley in Milwaukee. I learned PLC language, how to troubleshoot circuits and program them. If you don't know what a PLC is, give Google a go.  ;)

Many years later in 1985 I became an instrument tech which was just a fancy name for a Golden Boy electrician. My company once again spent $$$ educating me in instrument control at the ISA facility (Instrument Society of America) which at the time was in Raleigh NC.  PLC's started to take over the instrument field and I was involved in it all until I retired at age 55 in 2001. Tech was good to me and I was paid well for my efforts. I not only embraced PC's and state of the art technology, I made a very good living doing it. From 1978 until today, Nov 19 2020 I worked/played daily with PC's.

Of course I always had the latest and greatest PC as I am also an avid gamer, ipods. ipads, iphones, yep, been there many times and still use an ipad/iphone daily.

So it was no surprise when I jumped on the SDR bandwagon and bought a brand new Flexradio 5000 around 10 years ago. I hated PC and mouse control on a radio, give me knobs any day or at the very least touch screen control- good touch screen control like an ipad. Most hams agree with me, that is why radios like the Icom 7300/7610 and the Yaesu FTDX101 are vastly more popular than radios that have a PC as a requirement for control.

Stan K9IUQ
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