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Author Topic: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?  (Read 1921 times)

K9IUQ

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Re: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2020, 05:19:47 AM »

One thing about the 101's 2D waterfall display is curious. When an ionosonde sweeps by, the line on the display looks like a dashed line

I have never noticed it, in fact I had to Wiki ionosonde....  :D

If I had to guess I would think is has something to do with the fast real time 101MP display, it is not damped, averaged or slowed down like a 7610 display. Most hams that are used to a Icom display will immediate see the difference in 101 display speed, and most Icom owners will probably not like the fast display of the 101MP because they are used to an damped averaged display.

Do not worry about it since you already announced you decided to buy a 7610.

Stan K9IUQ
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 05:28:29 AM by K9IUQ »
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G8FXC

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Re: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2020, 05:32:36 AM »

One thing about the 101's 2D waterfall display is curious. When an ionosonde sweeps by, the line on the display looks like a dashed line

I have never noticed it, in fact I had to Wiki ionosonde....  :D

If I had to guess I would think is has something to do with the fast real time 101MP display, it is not damped, averaged or slowed down like a 7610 display. Most hams that are used to a Icom display will immediate see the difference in 101 display speed, and most Icom owners will probably not like the fast display of the 101MP because they are used to an damped averaged display.

Do not worry about it since you already announced you decided to buy a 7610.

Stan K9IUQ

Well, there's interesting! I was aware of the ionosondes - I live quite close to one of the ground stations - but I had never given too much thought to how they work. This post prompted me to read a bit more about them and I now realise that the diagonal trace I see across my panadaptor from time to time is coming from the Rutherford Appleton Laboratory site just up the road!

Martin (G8FXC)
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K9IUQ

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Re: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2020, 07:09:27 AM »

. When an ionosonde sweeps by, the line on the display looks like a dashed line when it should look like a continuous line.

instead of looking like a solid line, it looks like a picket fence.

I don't pretend to know about ionosondes but I do know how to use Google. I found this:

"Pulsed radio waves of up to ~ 20 MHz (15m wavelength) may be totally reflected in the ionosphere, giving strong echoes even with rather low transmitted power (a few kW). This is the fundamental principle of the 'ionosonde'."

I found this youtube on a ionosonde and I have seen these and heard them before, so I now know what to look for. NOTE this video shows the ionosonde as a picket fence trace, not sure what SDR they are using.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0EwS45ZZbo&ab_channel=FirstToken

Maybe the trace depiction also depends on the waterfall speed?

Maybe the key word is pulsed?. Could what you described be the 101MP actually seeing a pulse because of its fast display and the Icom display not actually seeing a pulse since their display is slower/damped?

I dunno, just pondering..... Interesting and now I know what those chirps are. I also now wonder if all ionosondes are the same, maybe different chirps/pulse lengths/different speeds etc.  Wonder where they are located?

Stan K9IUQ
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 07:19:20 AM by K9IUQ »
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W6UV

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Re: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2020, 09:05:41 AM »

Do not worry about it since you already announced you decided to buy a 7610.

I said that I was leaning towards the 7610, but have not made a firm decision to buy it. I can still change my mind.  ;)

How responsive has Yaesu been to customer feedback regarding firmware changes? Are they like a typical Japanese company, or do they listen to their customers and quickly add new features and correct poorly implemented ones? Icom seems to have stalled here--the last 7610 FW update was back in mid-2018.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 09:12:10 AM by W6UV »
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W6UV

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Re: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2020, 09:11:46 AM »

On all of my SDR receivers, ionosonde traces always appear as smooth, unbroken lines, no matter how I have the averaging of the waterfall set. Most of these have very fast update rates, just like the 101MP.

Some ionosondes have an interesting characteristic: they skip WWV frequencies. The line stops completely about 5 kHz before 10 MHz, and starts again about 5 kHz after 10 MHz. I've seen the same thing around other WWV frequencies.
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K9IUQ

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Re: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?
« Reply #35 on: November 24, 2020, 09:27:51 AM »


How responsive has Yaesu been to customer feedback regarding firmware changes? Are they like a typical Japanese company, or do they listen to their customers and quickly add new features and correct poorly implemented ones? Icom seems to have stalled here--the last 7610 FW update was back in mid-2018.

I have owned my 101MP for a year and there was one FW update in April 2020. I don't recall the FW being earth shattering. I believe this update gave the 101mp nework control with the optional Yaesus LAN box. The FW was however the easiest FW update to do that I have seen on any radio I have owned. Painless. Some of my other Yaesu VHF/UHF gear (C4FM) are a real PAIN to update. I have had the C4FM radios since 2005 and Yaesu has implemented many FW updates that really improved the originals.

So I cant really give an opinion good/bad on Yaesu 101MP customer feedback. I did have an immediate problem with High SWR alert when I first got the radio. This turned out to be a Hardware issue on the MP model only. It is well documented in my Deed is Done thread from last year. I got great service from Yaesu in CA. They were professional and kept me up to date and had a fast turnaround.

The 101MP comes with a three year Warrantee, a really great extra

Stan K9IUQ
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 09:43:26 AM by K9IUQ »
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VE3EY

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Re: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?
« Reply #36 on: November 24, 2020, 10:58:13 AM »



TThe 2D display is just too frantic for my tastes--I just couldn't sit watching it jump around like it does for hours at a time--I don't know why Yaesu didn't bother to include an averaging function to quiet the thing down. The spectrum/waterfall display on the Icom is much smoother and nicer to look at for long periods of time while operating. I've gotten so used to a waterfall display that I consider operating to be as much of a visual activity as an audio activity.



I never had an opportunity to lay hands on either brand (7610 or FTdx101*) but I am contemplating one of those just like W6UV.   I've owned and used K3 since 2008. 99% CW usage.   Previously had FT-1000MP.    If it wasn't for the lack of averaging on FT-101D/MP spectrum adapter, I think that radio would have come up on top on my list.    Lots of folks around are citing the lack of this feature and I am not sure why Yaesu did not decide to implement it.   
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KX2T

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Re: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2020, 01:04:26 PM »

Hi Jerry, both the FTDX101D or MP are great radio's, the RX section is maybe one of the best in lab numbers out in the affordable radio market today. The Icom 7610 is also a very good radio, in raw features it compares with the 101MP version except for not being a 200W radio, they did have a display issue and from what it looks like they have fixed this issue, personally I had my 7610 back three times and the third display soo far seem 100% so I'll knock on my wood desk as I type this PM but the fact that I put up with this issues three times tells you that if the RX sucked this radio would have been toast! The Display and the way you can also adapt a secondary program called HDSDR places this knobbed SDR along with some of the box only SDR rigs cause what they call the guey which I guess is nerd talk for the display on you 30+ monitor that can almost compete with the BOX SDR's. The onboard display on the Icom from what I have seen at the last Hamcation down at Orlando is excellent, maybe not as fancy as the Flex M models but just try and use the Flex 6400/6600M models with your finger's it will drive you nuts but the Icom or Yaesu will not but the spectrum display on the Yaesu is not what I call there best shot, its kind of chucky and grassy and not very customizable were the Icom is far ahead. These are area's that you really have to decide for yourself on what is important to you and what you want to look at on your operating table cause everyone will have a difference of opinion.
The K4 is coming out soon so they say but if you got on a list today maybe you will get one in another year, its a dare bones SDR and if you want the top radio with the Superhet/SDR you are looking at over $6K, has NO Digi Select as per Icom or VC tune as in the Yaesu front end pre selector and still only a 100W radio. My take from Playing with the ones at Orlando is that its a $4000 Elecraft version of the Icom 7610 with less features. I feel they missed the time period on the K4 and it will take some time to do catch up.
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K0UA

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Re: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2020, 01:32:45 PM »

I will just say I am very pleased with the 7160's CW abilities, and the fact that it comes complete out of the box. No add on's for anything including LAN capabilities. No add on's for any filters or tuning units or anything. "does she walk, does the talk, does she come complete?"   Yes she does. This is Icom's philosophy. No add on BS like many manufactures. What you see is what you get out of the box.


Maybe this will help someone.   GUI pronounced "gooey" stands for Graphical User Interface.
It is a type of MMI or Man Machine Interface that is graphical in nature.  The term applies both to computers and now to modern radios.
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73  James K0UA

W6UV

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Re: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?
« Reply #39 on: November 24, 2020, 02:24:42 PM »

I went to the local HRO store this morning and spent 1-1/2 hours with the FTdx-101D and 30 minutes with the 7610.

I went in really, really wanting to like the 101, because IMO it's the best looking and the best built of the two. Unfortunately, I came away disliking the 101, for reasons listed below.

My dislike of the 101 entirely boils down to its display. The spectrum scope is best described as "chunky", e.g. it looks very blocky and pixilated and not smooth. It's not an issue with the physical screen, because both the Yaesu and the Icom have 7" 800x480 displays, and the Icom spectrum scope appears smooth and not blocky.

In addition to looking blocky, tuning on the Yaesu screen was weird. I dislike "Center" mode and strongly prefer "Fix" mode. When tuning with the main VFO knob in Fix mode, the rig paints a red stripe on the screen who's width presumably indicates the width of the filter, and this stripe moves around when tuning, which is very distracting. Tune back and forth a few times and you have a sinuous s-curve of red on the waterfall. Why this red stripe doesn't stay vertical and move when tuning, I don't know, but this is a misfeature, and an annoying one. Compared to the Icom, the Yaesu waterfall seemed to have a lower dynamic range, even after adjusting the levels, etc.

I gave the 3DSS a fair try, but after about ten minutes concluded that it is a gimmick just like I thought it would be. Sure, it might help sell rigs (because no one else has it), but I can't see it providing any additional information in a more useful way than a 2D waterfall. Keysight doesn't have a 3D display on their megabuck spectrum analyzers, so perhaps they're not that useful after all.

The Icom, in contrast to the Yaesu, had a much better implemented spectrum/waterfall display. It was smoother, less chunky, and has several averaging options to smooth out the jumpiness. Since jumpiness adds no useful information to a spectrum display, the averaging helps a lot to make it easier to look at for long periods. Tuning with the VFO knob on the Icom was smooth and without weird artifacts like the red stripe on the Yaesu display.

As far as build quality goes, it seems that the Yaesu is better built, with better knobs and overall fit and finish. I would definitely prefer this over the Icom, but the Yaesu's poorly implemented display ruins the experience for me. I also like the fact that the Icom uses RF direct sampling as opposed to the IF sampling Yaesu uses. This is the future, and will become more prevalent and better as ADCs and software become faster and more accurate. Icom will have a one generation lead on Yaesu that will probably become clear in the next generation of rigs from both companies. The Icom also has an I/Q output via USB that the Yaesu lacks, and an Ethernet port rather than the obsolete RS-232 port on the Yaesu--how many modern PCs have an RS-232 port? Very few. Probably 99+% of users are going to use the RS-232 port with an RS-232 to USB adapter, so why not just put a second USB port on the back? The Yaesu has 200 watts of output, and although this might be nice, I do have a legal limit amp, so it's just a minor thing.

To me, the "killer" feature of recent rigs has been the waterfall display. I find this so useful that I could never go back to a rig without one. That's why my FTdx-5000 has been sitting in my closet for the last 6-1/2 years. Rigs like the Icom and Yaesu have displays that are useful, but at only 7" and 800x480 resolution, they're far from what they could be. Even my four year old iPhone 7 Plus has a display with 1920x1080 resolution, so it's obvious that the technology is there--Icom and Yaesu cheaped out and spec'ed a low-res display. The fact that both support external displays isn't a factor here, because both limit the external display to showing an exact copy of the built-in screen at either 800x480 or 800x600 resolution. That's a complete waste on my 32" 4K displays.

Since I spend most of my time SWLing the shortwave and BCB bands, I've had lots of recent experience with SDR receivers. All of my SDRs are simple boxes with antenna connector(s) and a USB port. The PC handles the display work, and all of the software that I've used (SDR Console, FDM-SW2, SDRuno, and HDSDR) support hi-res PC displays. It's really nice to see a big, smooth waterfall of an entire broadcast band on a 4K monitor at its native resolution. All of these software packages support extensive averaging functions to help tame the chaotic nature of an HF band and make tuning a pleasure.

With that said, I'll get into what's probably going to be a controversial topic with some people, and that's the option of going with a newer Flex rig. My primary rig for the past 6-1/2 years has been a Flex-6500, and that rig, both hardware and software, has been flawless in my shack. I've never had the hardware hang, freeze, or spontaneously reboot, nor has the software (SmartSDR) ever froze or aborted. And during those 6-1/2 years I've applied Windows updates too numerous to count, and not one has ever affected the Flex software--it just keeps chugging along. The best part of the Flex software is its panafall display, which appears on my 32" 4K monitor at full native resolution, and the waterfall scrolls perfectly smoothly--no stuttering or pausing, even when I'm doing other things on the computer at the same time (the computer is a seven year old Intel Core i5 with 16GB, so it's certainly no speed demon). It can do that because all of the real work is done on the CPU and FPGA in the Flex box--the only thing the PC does is handle the display and the UI. It's not like the Flex-5000A, where, for instance, the transmitted RF signal was generated in software on the PC and sent over a Firewire connection to the Flex box. I operate a lot of CW and cannot detect any latency when sending with a paddle on my Flex-6500.

So, my choice comes down to the Icom 7610 or the Flex-6600. If I went with Flex, I wouldn't get the 6600M model, because I'm not very happy with how they've implemented the front panel display (it's a Dell tablet sandwiched behind the front panel and all of the normal Windows stuff hidden from the user). Do I want buttons and knobs, or do I really care about that? If I get the 7610, it'll probably be mostly to have something different than my current rig. So why the Flex-6600 if I already have a working 6500? The 6600 has an additional spectrum capture unit (ADC) that permits things like diversity reception and better front-end filtering than the 6500.

So, a lot to think about. Flex has already announced their Black Friday deals on their stuff, and it remains to be seen what, if any, additional discount HRO/DXE/Gigaparts will offer on the 7610.
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K9IUQ

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Re: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2020, 03:52:44 PM »


Since I spend most of my time SWLing the shortwave and BCB bands,

With that said, I'll get into what's probably going to be a controversial topic with some people, and that's the option of going with a newer Flex rig.

SWL is still a thing? Outside of the Bible Banging Stations begging for $$$  on HF or foreign (primarily Spanish) language  broadcasts they ain't much there any more. May as well just listen to FT-8 signals and watch your grass grow or sit and listen to the chirp sounder  ;) :D :D :D

Just buy the cheap Tunein app for the ipad/iphone and you can listen to just about anything being broadcast BCB or SWL. No $$$$$$ SDR RX needed and QRM free. LMAO.

I used to be a big SWL listener, but like iPods and Walkmans, those days are long gone.

Jerry, good luck on whatever you buy.....

Stan K9IUQ
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K8EZB

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Re: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2020, 04:24:02 PM »

So, a lot to think about.

This is why there are Fords, Chevys, and Porsches. Cant comment on the Flex products as I have never owned one (thanks in large part to Stan!). My experience with the 7610 over the last two years suggests that you cant go wrong with this choice. Like your experience with Flex, my 7610 experience has been flawless. It seems very likely the display issue is history at this point.

I am less than a day into getting up to speed on my new 101MP, and so far not seeing the issues that you are - probably not smart enough. I did get the radio initially set up for SSB and FT8 this morning and made contacts with both modes. On SSB, checked into a net on 40m with net control in eastern PA. Running 50 watts and signal/audio report was excellent. This surprised me as with all the TX audio setup controls (mic gain, AMC, processor and three equalizers) and a 20+ year old MD-100 mic, I was likely nowhere near optimum settings; this will take some careful fiddling. FT8 setup straightforward with QSOs on 40m and 17m, running 25 watts. Again, this will take some more careful fine tuning to optimize TX audio settings.

I spent considerable time with the manuals before purchasing this radio and was a bit intimidated, however, hands on, pretty intuitive although quite different in detail from the 7610, but similar at 50,000 ft. So far, no regrets, but plenty of time ahead for those!

Rick
K8EZB
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 04:37:41 PM by K8EZB »
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K9IUQ

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Re: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?
« Reply #42 on: November 24, 2020, 05:11:24 PM »

This is why there are Fords, Chevys, and Porsches. Cant comment on the Flex products as I have never owned one (thanks in large part to Stan!).
I am less than a day into getting up to speed on my new 101MP, and so far not seeing the issues that you are -
Rick
K8EZB

I have known Jerry, W6UV,  since I bought my Flexradio 5K (Jerry owned the 5K also) 10 years ago. He has always been a (sometimes closet) FlexLover. He is one of the few Flexlovers I have respected or liked. He does have bias, just like all hams. We have argued and agreed/disagreed on many issues. I think we are still friends?

Rick, it will take you some time to figure out everything with your new radio. The 101MP is one feature packed radio which will frustrate many who refuse to read the manual or join and/or participate in 101 online forums that have many good tips for getting the most out of this radio. Yes it is intuitive enough to turn it on and have fun but you will not get the full power of the 101MP if you do not understand its many features, features you have never seen before with your 7610.

Stan K9IUQ

Have fun

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K8EZB

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Re: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?
« Reply #43 on: November 24, 2020, 05:28:02 PM »

will frustrate many who refuse to read the manual

I am an inveterate manual reader and generally wont touch a new piece of equipment until I have read the manual cover to cover, often more than once. Probably a result of 50+ accident-free years in aviation. I am fond of saying that I could do a heart transplant with a good manual. I am also a somewhat active participant in many amateur radio and test equipment forums at groups.io and other sites. I will never be the expert that some are on these topics but I'll get along.

Speaking of manuals, I have found the quality of Icom (7300,7610), Yaesu (101MP), and Acom (1200S, 04AT) manuals to be wanting. Numerous typos, errors, and generally poor writing, most likely the result of the author having a language other than English as their first language.  I respect and admire folks who can communicate in more than one language (I cant) but don't think it unreasonable for a manual for a pricey and complex product to have the benefit of a qualified editor.

Rick
K8EZB
« Last Edit: November 24, 2020, 05:40:20 PM by K8EZB »
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N2DTS

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Re: FTdx-101MP Gotchas?
« Reply #44 on: November 25, 2020, 07:41:07 AM »

I thought about the 7610 for a while, but got a used Flex 6400M for three main reasons:
The display is VERY good,
The fidelity is very good (RX and TX),
It has all the ins and outs I wanted.

No other radio has close to the first two things on the list.

I thought the display of the 7300 I had was the best of the Japanese radios, but it was missing all the other stuff and is nothing like the Flex.

In many other respects, the 7300 or the 7610 are better, ease of use, features that work.

I hated the menu system of every Yaesu I ever owned, but maybe with enough knobs....
I find it amazing how BAD many displays on radios are these days.
Cheap phones and tablets and even some garbage sdr radios have much better displays then
very expensive Japanese HF radios???
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