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Author Topic: Listening fatigue IC 7300  (Read 2153 times)

K0UA

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Re: Listening fatigue IC 7300
« Reply #60 on: December 04, 2020, 08:27:25 PM »

Yes, that is very nice, but they limit what you can get to.
It would be nice if the filter was shown on the panadaptor and waterfall...
No, you can see it both as the little black and white outline graphic up by the FIL icon with the little dot meaning it is not default OR if you press and hold  the filter Icon you can see a large color graphic of the twin passband tuning that dynamically moves as you move the knobs showing digitally the bandwidth and the shift from center. It is quite ornate and detailed.
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73  James K0UA

K7JQ

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Re: Listening fatigue IC 7300
« Reply #61 on: December 05, 2020, 04:03:06 AM »

There's so much amazing stuff you can do with the little *entry level*, $1,000 IC-7300, that I don't understand anyone questioning its capabilities. In last weekend's CQWW CW contest, I doubt if I could have done any better with a $3,000+ radio. But I could have done better with a bigger antenna...that's where you get better performance/results. If you want more bells, whistles, buttons and knobs to fit your needs, have at it...spend the money ;). Icom, Yaesu, Kenwood, Elecraft, Flex (sorry Stan), etc...they're all good. Buy what you want and enjoy it!
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K1FBI

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Re: Listening fatigue IC 7300
« Reply #62 on: December 05, 2020, 04:31:36 AM »

There's so much amazing stuff you can do with the little *entry level*, $1,000 IC-7300, that I don't understand anyone questioning its capabilities. In last weekend's CQWW CW contest, I doubt if I could have done any better with a $3,000+ radio. But I could have done better with a bigger antenna...that's where you get better performance/results. If you want more bells, whistles, buttons and knobs to fit your needs, have at it...spend the money ;). Icom, Yaesu, Kenwood, Elecraft, Flex (sorry Stan), etc...they're all good. Buy what you want and enjoy it!
If you’re really cheap the IC-718 will get you CW contacts too.
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K9IUQ

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Re: Listening fatigue IC 7300
« Reply #63 on: December 05, 2020, 05:00:42 AM »

Thats funny, as the 6400M has a built in speaker on the front that sounds as you would expect (poor) but has no speaker output, its headphones and line level audio, both adjustable for level.

I would not think of using any rigs built in speaker except in the field maybe.
Might be ok on CW, you don't need much fidelity for that.

Well, you did not quite answer my question about Flexradio which was:

 "The Flexradio 5000 I owned did NOT have an audio amp built into the radio. IOW you had to use external amplification like powered speakers or running the audio thru a HTS receiver. Has this changed with the newer Flexradios?? The BIG problem with this is RFI. Consumer audio equipment is not designed to run in high RF environments."


Since you did not answer my question, I assumed you did not either 1. Know the answer or 2. more likely did not like the answer. So I went to the Flexradio website and found the answer and I was shocked. Flexradio does NOT provide speaker level outputs on any of their radios. They have a headphone output and a POWERED SPEAKER output. This tells me they have no rx audio amp built into their radios, yours apparently has an audio amp but it is so wimpy it will only power your dinky builtin speaker. I understand now why W6UV told us he only uses headphones, he has no other choice unless he is willing to use powered speakers or a external audio amplifier/RX of some sort.

The problem with this, which I have experienced first hand many times in my ham career is consumer grade powered speakers and HTS/Stereo RX are very prone to RFI. Try running Legal Limit and see if a Stereo RX or powered  speakers in your shack will not have RFI. I have to assume then that FLexradio owners are still in love with Ferrites. I can perhaps understand why no internal speaker in Flexradio Products but why no speaker audio amp built in to the radio (where it could be RFI proofed) to run external speakers????

My intent is not to bash Flexradio, I merely would like to know what reasoning Flex uses for this decision, after all the big 3 manufacturers do not require powered speakers on their radios.

Stan K9IUQ
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K9IUQ

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Re: Listening fatigue IC 7300
« Reply #64 on: December 05, 2020, 05:09:49 AM »


No, you can see it both as the little black and white outline graphic up by the FIL icon with the little dot meaning it is not default OR if you press and hold  the filter Icon you can see a large color graphic of the twin passband tuning that dynamically moves as you move the knobs showing digitally the bandwidth and the shift from center. It is quite ornate and detailed.

The FTDX-101MP does similar and I believe the filter graphic is default on all displays. The 101MP has many many different displays, it is very customizable.

I have found the filter graphic to be very useful. I use it for CW tuning, in contests I run a 300hz roof filter and 100-150hz DSP filter. This is quite narrow and the Filter graphic makes it easy to tune a signal exactly where you want. Of course the 101MP also has a auto cw tune button but my technique is easier and faster especially when doing S&P in a cw contest.

Stan K9IUQ
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K9IUQ

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Re: Listening fatigue IC 7300
« Reply #65 on: December 05, 2020, 05:25:22 AM »

I doubt if I could have done any better with a $3,000+ radio.
 If you want more bells, whistles, buttons and knobs to fit your needs, have at it...spend the money ;). Icom, Yaesu, Kenwood, Elecraft, Flex (sorry Stan), etc...they're all good.

Hey Bob, YES you could have done better with a 101MP. I too did CQWWCW last weekend and experienced many many times when I could not have made a Q with a lesser radio, The Africa Q's come to mind, the pile was fierce on them and I worked them all with 100 watts, the big issue was hearing the Africa stations thru all the stupid USA ops calling right on top of them over and over and over with their call letters. It took a really good RX to pull the Africans thru that mess but the 101mp was up to it, especially with the VC tune. No doubt those African Q's would not be in my logbook without the 101MP..

 I did the contest this year sans Big AL and legal limit. I did the low power category specifically because I wanted to see how the barefoot 101MP would compete. The majority of my Q's were on 15 mtr (LP Beam) and 40mtr (monoband Vertical)....

As you said, all radios are good but I say some radios are Gooder than others.  :D

Stan K9IUQ
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K7JQ

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Re: Listening fatigue IC 7300
« Reply #66 on: December 05, 2020, 05:56:08 AM »

There's so much amazing stuff you can do with the little *entry level*, $1,000 IC-7300, that I don't understand anyone questioning its capabilities. In last weekend's CQWW CW contest, I doubt if I could have done any better with a $3,000+ radio. But I could have done better with a bigger antenna...that's where you get better performance/results. If you want more bells, whistles, buttons and knobs to fit your needs, have at it...spend the money ;). Icom, Yaesu, Kenwood, Elecraft, Flex (sorry Stan), etc...they're all good. Buy what you want and enjoy it!
If you’re really cheap the IC-718 will get you CW contacts too.

Yes it will. But see what a 718 will get you in a crowded CW contest vs a 7300. Compare specs and concentrate on selectivity/filtering. No contest (no pun intended). Also see what else *important* operating features you get for an additional $440. But if a 718 meets your needs, go for it.
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K7JQ

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Re: Listening fatigue IC 7300
« Reply #67 on: December 05, 2020, 07:23:55 AM »

I doubt if I could have done any better with a $3,000+ radio.
 If you want more bells, whistles, buttons and knobs to fit your needs, have at it...spend the money ;). Icom, Yaesu, Kenwood, Elecraft, Flex (sorry Stan), etc...they're all good.

Hey Bob, YES you could have done better with a 101MP. I too did CQWWCW last weekend and experienced many many times when I could not have made a Q with a lesser radio, The Africa Q's come to mind, the pile was fierce on them and I worked them all with 100 watts, the big issue was hearing the Africa stations thru all the stupid USA ops calling right on top of them over and over and over with their call letters. It took a really good RX to pull the Africans thru that mess but the 101mp was up to it, especially with the VC tune. No doubt those African Q's would not be in my logbook without the 101MP..

 I did the contest this year sans Big AL and legal limit. I did the low power category specifically because I wanted to see how the barefoot 101MP would compete. The majority of my Q's were on 15 mtr (LP Beam) and 40mtr (monoband Vertical)....

As you said, all radios are good but I say some radios are Gooder than others.  :D

Stan K9IUQ

Hi Stan,

Of course your 101MP is *gooder* than my 7300 :). It better be for an additional $3,200. But I did use the word "doubt". How much better? Let me clarify:

No matter what radio you have, in a pile-up (that's not working split), with perhaps hundreds of stations virtually zero-beat and louder than the DX, you're not gonna hear him until they all shut up. Will you agree with me on that? Busting the pile-up is determined by timing your call, tuning a little off his frequency so he hears a different tone, having enough power for him to hear you in the first place, propagation, and some luck. In other words, mostly operating skill, which I'm sure you have an abundance of. The 7300's DSP filtering can go as low as 50hZ. All the other receiver performance specs are pretty high up on Sherwood's list, for all intensive purposes. But not as good as the 101MP.

Perhaps I could have wrangled some extra Q's by manipulating the various controls on a 101MP, but how much more to make a real difference in my score?  Which was 800 Q's (95% S&P) in 27 hours for 553,000 points, using a ground-mounted screwdriver antenna. I could have done more if I was a better operator. But competing against stations with tons more directional/gain aluminum in the air requires a lot of compromise, even with a KW. Trying to keep up my rate, I don't get into pileups (except to JA and Oceania...strangely real strong into those areas), and I'll go back to them later when they're begging for Q's to pick up the mult. And operating from the propagation wasteland of Arizona, I have to wait my turn to get through the midwest and east coast curtain to Europe and Africa. But I did get plenty of them in my log

What I'm trying to say is I don't have two receivers (although I have another 7300), can't put the screen up on an external monitor, don't have "VC Tune", don't have more antenna outputs or I/O options, no 3D panadapter, 1/3 the number of buttons and knobs, 1/2 the size, etc, etc. But the little 7300 gets the job done to my satisfaction.

I have spoken ;D ;D.

73 and stay safe,

Bob K7JQ
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K9IUQ

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Re: Listening fatigue IC 7300
« Reply #68 on: December 05, 2020, 07:59:25 AM »

I don't get into pileups (except to JA and Oceania...strangely real strong into those areas),

I have spoken ;D ;D.

73 and stay safe,

Bob K7JQ

I DO get into pileups, it is the main reason I do contesting. I like the adrenaline rush of a huge pile. It is what I do. I don't get into contests for big scores, I don't have the Stamina that and my days of pulling all nighters are long gone. And my DXCC record is rarely improved in a contest, new countries are hard to come by for me, even band fills are pretty slow for me.

I do contests for one reason. It is fun. Pileups are great fun and a challenge I seek out. The bigger the pile, the more the jerks and clueless ops the more fun.

And finding fun in hamradio after my long ham career is cherished.

From my location JA's are dime a dozen in any contest, I swear I work every JA in Japan every contest and they all send me the same lame QSL Card. Oceania is the same here, VK and ZL are very easy. I live on a hill and have a straight shot to the horizon to my west and NE.

Stan K9IUQ
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K7JQ

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Re: Listening fatigue IC 7300
« Reply #69 on: December 05, 2020, 08:29:24 AM »

I don't get into pileups (except to JA and Oceania...strangely real strong into those areas),

I have spoken ;D ;D.

73 and stay safe,

Bob K7JQ

I DO get into pileups, it is the main reason I do contesting. I like the adrenaline rush of a huge pile. It is what I do. I don't get into contests for big scores, I don't have the Stamina that and my days of pulling all nighters are long gone. And my DXCC record is rarely improved in a contest, new countries are hard to come by for me, even band fills are pretty slow for me.

I do contests for one reason. It is fun. Pileups are great fun and a challenge I seek out. The bigger the pile, the more the jerks and clueless ops the more fun.

And finding fun in hamradio after my long ham career is cherished.

From my location JA's are dime a dozen in any contest, I swear I work every JA in Japan every contest and they all send me the same lame QSL Card. Oceania is the same here, VK and ZL are very easy. I live on a hill and have a straight shot to the horizon to my west and NE.

Stan K9IUQ

I'll do pileups for a DXpedition or a new country (also hard to come by) when time isn't a factor. During a timed contest, no (unless it's small and a new mult). My goal is more points to contribute to my contest club's total score. With my antenna, I'm not in it to win it. Not gonna waste time when other stations can be worked in the meantime. I always get my normal night's sleep...27-30 hours BIC (Butt In Chair) is max for me.

You didn't answer my question. In a big pileup on the same frequency when tons of stations are virtually zero-beat and louder than the DX, you claimed that you could pick him out with your 101MP while he's transmitting and they're still calling him. Is that what I understood by your comment?

Bob K7JQ
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N2DTS

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Re: Listening fatigue IC 7300
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2020, 08:33:25 AM »

I did answer, maybe read it again.
The 6400m DOES have an audio amp built in that drives the built in speaker on the front of the radio.
It goes loud enough and sounds fine on ssb and CW.
I suspect its the usual 2 watts at 10% distortion most radios have.

It does not have an output for an outboard speaker.
I get no RF into the Marantz at full legal limit with a close antenna and would never bother using cheap computer speakers on my radios.
A nice bookshelf at moderate levels maybe but with many radios I just put all the audios into one good amp/speaker setup.






Thats funny, as the 6400M has a built in speaker on the front that sounds as you would expect (poor) but has no speaker output, its headphones and line level audio, both adjustable for level.

I would not think of using any rigs built in speaker except in the field maybe.
Might be ok on CW, you don't need much fidelity for that.

Well, you did not quite answer my question about Flexradio which was:

 "The Flexradio 5000 I owned did NOT have an audio amp built into the radio. IOW you had to use external amplification like powered speakers or running the audio thru a HTS receiver. Has this changed with the newer Flexradios?? The BIG problem with this is RFI. Consumer audio equipment is not designed to run in high RF environments."


Since you did not answer my question, I assumed you did not either 1. Know the answer or 2. more likely did not like the answer. So I went to the Flexradio website and found the answer and I was shocked. Flexradio does NOT provide speaker level outputs on any of their radios. They have a headphone output and a POWERED SPEAKER output. This tells me they have no rx audio amp built into their radios, yours apparently has an audio amp but it is so wimpy it will only power your dinky builtin speaker. I understand now why W6UV told us he only uses headphones, he has no other choice unless he is willing to use powered speakers or a external audio amplifier/RX of some sort.

The problem with this, which I have experienced first hand many times in my ham career is consumer grade powered speakers and HTS/Stereo RX are very prone to RFI. Try running Legal Limit and see if a Stereo RX or powered  speakers in your shack will not have RFI. I have to assume then that FLexradio owners are still in love with Ferrites. I can perhaps understand why no internal speaker in Flexradio Products but why no speaker audio amp built in to the radio (where it could be RFI proofed) to run external speakers????

My intent is not to bash Flexradio, I merely would like to know what reasoning Flex uses for this decision, after all the big 3 manufacturers do not require powered speakers on their radios.

Stan K9IUQ
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N2DTS

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Re: Listening fatigue IC 7300
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2020, 08:36:35 AM »

I know they have a little thing at the top that basicly tells you how wide the filter is, but that is far from showing the filter on the waterfall/bandscope.




Yes, that is very nice, but they limit what you can get to.
It would be nice if the filter was shown on the panadaptor and waterfall...
No, you can see it both as the little black and white outline graphic up by the FIL icon with the little dot meaning it is not default OR if you press and hold  the filter Icon you can see a large color graphic of the twin passband tuning that dynamically moves as you move the knobs showing digitally the bandwidth and the shift from center. It is quite ornate and detailed.
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K0UA

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Re: Listening fatigue IC 7300
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2020, 08:53:48 AM »

I know they have a little thing at the top that basicly tells you how wide the filter is, but that is far from showing the filter on the waterfall/bandscope.




Yes, that is very nice, but they limit what you can get to.
It would be nice if the filter was shown on the panadaptor and waterfall...
No, you can see it both as the little black and white outline graphic up by the FIL icon with the little dot meaning it is not default OR if you press and hold  the filter Icon you can see a large color graphic of the twin passband tuning that dynamically moves as you move the knobs showing digitally the bandwidth and the shift from center. It is quite ornate and detailed.

We are not communicating.  Yes there is the little black and white graphic at the top showing the filter bandwidth, BUT there is also a large color graphic showing the relationship of the twin passband tuning knobs and how that is effecting the bandwith and "shift" if you will if you twist the two knobs together. I guess you missed that quite ornate and detailed part of my previous post.  Maybe I need to take a picture.
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73  James K0UA

K0UA

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Re: Listening fatigue IC 7300
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2020, 09:03:43 AM »

Quote
As you said, all radios are good but I say some radios are Gooder than others.

I agree wholeheartedly. While my 7300's are good, the 7610 is gooder in many respects. When I am trying to dig out a CW signal out of the noise, the 7610 is my go to radio, When I am working a pileup, without a doubt the two receivers are worth having and make the difference. That is why I was so disappointed to see the Kenwood 890 only had one receiver. The rig has some impressive specs and a beautiful display and layout, and then they only put 1 receiver in it. Blasphemy to my way of thinking.  I hear many of them on the air, and they all sound great, and many people love them.  But not me.

I did an interesting experiment (to me, and probably only me) last night by listening on the AM broadcast band with the 7610 in tracking mode with different antennas on each receiver.  The tracking mode on the 7610 is simply just slaving the second receiver to the VFO and mode etc of the first receiver. So as you turn the dial both receivers are set up the same so you don't have to manually move the 2nd one.  I used my 160 meter inverted L for the first antenna on receiver 1 and used my LOG (Loop on the ground) for the second receiver. It was fun and interesting to listen to the various frequencies and sometimes complete different station on the exact same frequency in one ear and a totally different station in the other ear.  Of course it was not different on each frequency, but some sure were.  (I am guessing I am easily amused) :)
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73  James K0UA

K9IUQ

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Re: Listening fatigue IC 7300
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2020, 09:14:49 AM »

[
You didn't answer my question. In a big pileup on the same frequency when tons of stations are virtually zero-beat and louder than the DX, you claimed that you could pick him out with your 101MP while he's transmitting and they're still calling him. Is that what I understood by your comment?

Bob K7JQ

Dang you Bob, you want my secrets, ok Bob here is what I do:

I put my 101MP display on 5khz span, this gives a nice close up of the pile. most stations, especially point and clickers who use the cluster bandmap land exactly on the same freq as the DX. Most DX that generate huge piles do NOT listen exactly on their freq, they use their RX RIT/Clarifier. The reason they do not listen exactly on their freq is it is very hard to pick out a call from all the QRM.

Smart hams trying to break the pile use TX RIT/Clarifier to move their TX freq up a down a little. Usually 10-100hz altho many times 10-200hz. This allows the DX a better chance to pick out a call, similar to using 2khz split but on a much smaller freq deviation.

Even smarter hams look at a closeup of the pileup and can find out where the DX station is listening, IOW who is the Dx working, a smart ham can see exactly what freq that is. This of course only works if you can RX the station the DX is working. BY using the TX clarifier on the 101MP a smart ham can get exactly where the DX just listened, tail ending comes to mind.  ;) If a smart ham can not hear/see the worked station then he tries to move to a clear spot and call the DX.

Now then, since there are many hams calling right on the DX freq it can be difficult to hear the DX. I use 300hz roof filter, 50-100hz DSP filter AND the VC tune control to cut out most of the garbage. I then take note of what the DX station signal looks like on display, In really big pileups like with the Africa stations it was very difficult to hear the DX, however if a smart ham can not hear the DX cuz of the pile, but can hear/see a worked station then the DX is still workable. Just jump on a ham giving a 5NN 4 report and call. ONE Call and listen, ONE call and listen. The chances are good the DX will call the smart ham, more than once usually allowing the smart ham to do a happy dance....

The 101MP has a red vertical line on the display showing exactly where the TX clarifier freq is located and you want that red line on the last worked station freq or nearby......

Stan K9IUQ
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