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Author Topic: HOA RULES and Regulation  (Read 3723 times)

K7JQ

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Re: HOA RULES and Regulation
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2021, 01:58:14 PM »

You don't have to notify the HOA if you want to install a small satellite dish (or other TV receiving antenna) under the OTARD rule, as long as it meets their requirement that it must be placed in the most inconspicuous place to still effectively receive the satellite or over-the-air signal.

The main two reasons for CC&R ham radio antenna prohibitions are 1-aesthetics, and 2-safety. The wireless devices mentioned have no visible antennas to impact the neighbors/community. If your CC&R's have ham antenna restrictions, and you erect one without at least petitioning the Architectural Committee (if allowed to do so), the HOA as the enforcing authority can order you to remove it. If it goes to court, you will lose and have to pay all costs.
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N0GV

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Re: HOA RULES and Regulation
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2021, 02:32:48 PM »

Condo Associations are really exercises in stupidity... the Champlain Towers Condo Assn didn't spend money on basic structural issues, look at how many people died. I am certain that their rules on antennas were "strictly" enforced.
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K3XR

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Re: HOA RULES and Regulation
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2021, 03:59:12 PM »

There may well be exceptions but when you sign the papers to purchase your antenna prohibited property you agree to the restrictions imposed.  It may be a new thread by no means a new topic. 

Some folks claim they are forced into purchasing in these restricted communities because no other housing is available.  I suppose that is a possibility.  I don't know the real estate scene for the entire country but it's hard to believe other options are not available at least in some locations.

I would tend to sympathize with those who entered the hobby after they purchased their property.  It certainly is an opportunity to be creative when it comes to antennas.

As it relates to local regulation of ham radio here is a case I'm very familiar with and some may find interesting.
https://newjersey.lexroll.com/bynum-v-winslow-tp-181-n-j-super-2-1981/

For other links search "randy bynum vs winslow township, nj"
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K7JQ

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Re: HOA RULES and Regulation
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2021, 04:27:17 PM »

Looking at the court case, he was only cited for interfering with TVs and stereos. When I was a teenager living with my parents in 1960's Philadelphia, our neighbors not only blamed "that damn ham radio kid" for their TVI, but also for overflowing toilets and washing machines, cars not starting, roofs leaking, dogs throwing up, and on and on ;D ;D ;D.

Bob K7JQ
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K6SDW

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Re: HOA RULES and Regulation
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2021, 06:01:12 PM »

Most all CC&R's specify in the event of civil court action and the ham loses, he pays all legal fees incurred by the HOA as well as his own.

Years ago I just said NO and moved to a non-CC&R community and yes risk my neighbor parking his Fleet of cars on his front lawn. So far, so good......the only flack I get now is from the XYL who isn't happy with the 3-element Yagi adorning her house roof.....S I G H!!

Ham radio ops are the scourge of the Country....how did Marconi and Hiram Maxim survive?
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WB4DX

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Re: HOA RULES and Regulation
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2021, 03:09:23 AM »

This is in some Florida HOA documents, I recently saw.

 "Please be advised that according to the HOA Documents, Rules and Regulations -Additions for Alterations #4: which states:  Antennae: No antennae, microwave receiving devices, satellite receiving devices, aerials or ham radios shall be placed or erected on any lot, within any home or upon any other portion of the community. "

Sounds like the MargaritaVille HOA! Avoid this place at all costs!
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WA1UIL

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Re: HOA RULES and Regulation
« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2021, 09:00:43 AM »

Anyone (especially Ham Operators) who sign on to a HOA controlled development with out doing their homework clearly DESERVE all restrictions imposed on them. You have to be insane to think that you being a ham operator will change anything AFTER you sign the papers.
 FCC rulings, Your Federal License and even your "go Box and Yellow safety Vest" don't mean jack.
DON'T be STUPID....... DO YOUR HOMEWORK
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W9IQ

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Re: HOA RULES and Regulation
« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2021, 09:23:59 AM »

You have to be insane to think that you being a ham operator will change anything AFTER you sign the papers.

Actually, you have almost no chance of changing the rules until you purchase the property. Once you have ownership, you can then petition the relative boards/committees for change. At least one successful example has been discussed here in the past. If you don't obtain satisfaction, you are free to use the court system or the FCC in an attempt to make your case.

The example given where no antennas of any type are allowed in public or private spaces is ripe for change - hopefully through appealing to common sense within the HOA structure but most certainly through court action.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K7JQ

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Re: HOA RULES and Regulation
« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2021, 10:38:25 AM »

You have to be insane to think that you being a ham operator will change anything AFTER you sign the papers.

Actually, you have *ALMOST* no chance of changing the rules until you purchase the property. Once you have ownership, you can then petition the relative boards/committees for change. At least one successful example has been discussed here in the past. If you don't obtain satisfaction, you are free to use the court system or the FCC in an attempt to make your case.

The example given where no antennas of any type are allowed in public or private spaces is ripe for change - hopefully through appealing to common sense within the HOA structure but most certainly through court action.

- Glenn W9IQ

All mostly true, except I think you have to remove the word *ALMOST* above. Until you buy a home and become a member of the community (and the HOA), you're just another looky-loo customer. Once you purchase, petitioning for a CC&R change involves a certain majority percentage vote by the homeowners.

If you can't get it changed, and the CC&R states something like..."(ham radio) antennas are prohibited, unless approved by the Architectural Committee", you might have a shot, depending on the logic of what you intend to erect. Most likely, forget a tower and beam. Maybe an inconspicuous vertical or wire antenna.

If they turn you down, forget about making it a court case. You will lose and pay all costs, as you're legally bound by the CC&R's. Anything contrary to the above is a wild exception.

Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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Re: HOA RULES and Regulation
« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2021, 10:53:57 AM »



If you can't get it changed, and the CC&R states something like..."(ham radio) antennas are prohibited, unless approved by the Architectural Committee", you might have a shot, depending on the logic of what you intend to erect. Most likely, forget a tower and beam. Maybe an inconspicuous vertical or wire antenna.


Bob K7JQ

It seems to always be the same internet HOA experts, doesn't it?

In ours, which is typical of many if not most here, The AC can and does have the authority and flexibility to both establish new rules or modify existing ones pursuant to boilerplate CC&R language generally found in genesis documents, all of which recognize the anticipated need to manage future use.

The whole "can't change the CC&R" theme song is largely a red herring argument.

I've looked at dozens of CC&Rs around here, most of which are contained in less than 10 pages while the HOA implementation manuals published pursuant to the CC&Rs contain hundreds of pages of explanations, construction codes, implementing procedures, examples, modification criteria, etc...
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K4FMH

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Re: HOA RULES and Regulation
« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2021, 11:21:57 AM »



If you can't get it changed, and the CC&R states something like..."(ham radio) antennas are prohibited, unless approved by the Architectural Committee", you might have a shot, depending on the logic of what you intend to erect. Most likely, forget a tower and beam. Maybe an inconspicuous vertical or wire antenna.


Bob K7JQ

It seems to always be the same internet HOA experts, doesn't it?

In ours, which is typical of many if not most here, The AC can and does have the authority and flexibility to both establish new rules or modify existing ones pursuant to boilerplate CC&R language generally found in genesis documents, all of which recognize the anticipated need to manage future use.

The whole "can't change the CC&R" theme song is largely a red herring argument.

I've looked at dozens of CC&Rs around here, most of which are contained in less than 10 pages while the HOA implementation manuals published pursuant to the CC&Rs contain hundreds of pages of explanations, construction codes, implementing procedures, examples, modification criteria, etc...

Bob,

There are circumstances by which CC&Rs do not apply to non-signatories. It *depends* on the Bylaws of the HOA "company" as filed with the Sec of State. Won't say I'm an Internet Expert. But I have lived this process and use a very knowledgeable attorney practicing real estate law in my State.

Frank
K4FMH
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K4FMH

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Re: HOA RULES and Regulation
« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2021, 11:26:05 AM »

Looking at the court case, he was only cited for interfering with TVs and stereos. When I was a teenager living with my parents in 1960's Philadelphia, our neighbors not only blamed "that damn ham radio kid" for their TVI, but also for overflowing toilets and washing machines, cars not starting, roofs leaking, dogs throwing up, and on and on ;D ;D ;D.

Bob K7JQ

Hi Bob,

One element of such interference involves whether the TVs and stereos are Part 15 equipment or not. If they are, what's the phrase? They have to accept any interference but cannot cause any or something like that? I do not know if this Federal regulation has been used as a response in such litigation. Would be an interesting argument.

Frank
K4FMH
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K4FMH

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Re: HOA RULES and Regulation
« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2021, 11:28:54 AM »

OMG!  I am looking at my WIFI router.  It has two antennas.  My wireless weather station has an antenna.  Would they be banned by a Florida HOA?   


No.
As the OP wrote:

"Please be advised that according to the HOA Documents, Rules and Regulations -Additions for Alterations #4: which states:  Antennae: No antennae, microwave receiving devices, satellite receiving devices, aerials or ham radios shall be placed or erected on any lot, within any home or upon any other portion of the community."

The WiFi router does have antennae. And it would fall under the regulation. So your No is puzzling. You may be referring to a sitting Judge's opinion but the ham posting the question was, I believe, asking about the CC&R as stated by the OP, no?

Frank
K4FMH
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K7JQ

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Re: HOA RULES and Regulation
« Reply #43 on: August 25, 2021, 11:55:33 AM »



If you can't get it changed, and the CC&R states something like..."(ham radio) antennas are prohibited, unless approved by the Architectural Committee", you might have a shot, depending on the logic of what you intend to erect. Most likely, forget a tower and beam. Maybe an inconspicuous vertical or wire antenna.


Bob K7JQ

It seems to always be the same internet HOA experts, doesn't it?

In ours, which is typical of many if not most here, The AC can and does have the authority and flexibility to both establish new rules or modify existing ones pursuant to boilerplate CC&R language generally found in genesis documents, all of which recognize the anticipated need to manage future use.

The whole "can't change the CC&R" theme song is largely a red herring argument.

I've looked at dozens of CC&Rs around here, most of which are contained in less than 10 pages while the HOA implementation manuals published pursuant to the CC&Rs contain hundreds of pages of explanations, construction codes, implementing procedures, examples, modification criteria, etc...

C'mon Don. So you're the expert. You always seem to have a contrary argument to anything anybody posts ;). I say this in jest...not contradicting your valid points. But you're talking about "around here", and "most here"...in Florida. Perhaps the regulations there are more relaxed. Look at what's going on there with the COVID-19 debacle and your governor ::).

Generally speaking (maybe not in FL), the Architectural Committee can make individual *exceptions* to a CC&R, as long as it doesn't adversely impact your immediate neighbors or the community as a whole. They can't totally *change, modify, or delete* a CC&R without a vote from the community members.

All I was trying to convey is don't assume or expect anything when dealing with CC&R's and their HOA enforcing body. You don't want to mess with them, or it could cost you big time. There's always exceptions, but they're generally few and far between.

Bob K7JQ

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W9IQ

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Re: HOA RULES and Regulation
« Reply #44 on: August 25, 2021, 12:23:57 PM »

One element of such interference involves whether the TVs and stereos are Part 15 equipment or not. If they are, what's the phrase? They have to accept any interference but cannot cause any or something like that? I do not know if this Federal regulation has been used as a response in such litigation. Would be an interesting argument.

Since 1982, the FCC has preemption over any local, state or other federal jurisdiction regarding all RFI matters (see P.L. 97-259). Either this is a very old example or the defendant's attorney wasn't very well versed.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.
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