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Author Topic: Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite  (Read 543 times)

WE4B

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Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite
« on: December 04, 2020, 11:35:02 AM »

I have been laughed at, made fun of, harassed and tormented because I have chosen to speak out about things that I view as wrong with AMSAT-NA. That’s fine. I’m a big boy.

One thing that the AMSAT-NA legacy, incumbents and their friends have attacked me about is that I have called for analyses of failed AMSAT-NA satellites. That has been met with ridicule and even the VP of Engineering stating that he doesn’t have time to do such an analysis. Yes, he really stated that.

Well, on the eve of AMSAT-NA launching another satellite, AMSAT-NA members find themselves with news of another satellite beginning to fail and, predictably, the VP of Operations just shrugs it off as no big deal. Here’s what he had to say about AO-91 which is exhibiting the beginning signs of failure. It’s the same symptoms that other AMSAT-NA Fox satellites exhibit right before they die:

https://www.amsat.org/pipermail/amsat-bb/2020-December/080455.html

I’m going to ask, once again, why the heck does AMSAT-NA keep spending money to launch satellites when we keep having the same type of premature failures?

AO-95 was launched and never worked. HO-107 (not a true AMSAT-NA satellite but carried an AMSAT-NA transponder) died after only a few days. AO-85 died of battery failure. AO-92 died of battery failure. Now AO-91 is dying of battery failure. AMSAT-NA has a documented recent history of satellites either not working or dying prematurely. We have all of these failures but not one failure analysis.

If Chevrolet, Ford had cars that consistently failed, their engineers would be under fire from stakeholders to find and correct the problems. If SpaceX had continued failures, Elon Musk would ensure his engineers fixed the problems. What does AMSAT-NA do? Nothing. If members ask about it, they are ridiculed and told that “space is hard”. Yes, space is hard but it’s made harder when people don’t learn from mistakes.

So, as AMSAT-NA prepares to launch another satellite, I’ll, once again, ask for failure analyses for all of these failed satellites. I’m not an engineer but I am a businessman. As a businessman, I know it’s ridiculous to keep spending money on assets or technology that fails prematurely.

What is it going to take for AMSAT-NA members to care enough to replace the leadership that continues to fail members and the organization? It’s sad to see AO-91 begin to fail, but it’s not unexpected based on the other Fox satellites.
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K6LCS

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Re: Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2020, 01:15:17 PM »

WE4B>> ... I have been laughed at, made fun of, harassed and tormented ...

Even stop to think WHY?

AMSAT members have spoken - through elections. They found you not worthy of holding a board position - resoundingly - twice now. No one else received fewer votes than you.

Believe it or not, hams can think for themselves. They don't need your posts nor blogs nor profane Web sites and email messages nor falsified Reddit accounts nor threats of litigation to live their lives and make decisions.

Just speaking for myself - as always: How 'bout taking your energy towards an organization with which you DO align yourself? Because your incessant, repeated, rambling rants are really repulsive, IMHO.

Clint Bradford K6LCS
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Clint Bradford, K6LCS
AMSAT Ambassador, ARRL Affiliated Club Coordinator
http://www.work-sat.com
909-999-SATS

WE4B

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Re: Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2020, 01:47:43 PM »

Folks, what you are seeing here from a documented AMSAT-NA representative, and shill, is just smoke and mirrors.

AMSAT-NA cannot deny that their is a well know history of premature failure of their satellites or a failure for their satellites to operate once launched.

If AMSAT-NA is staking their credibility on an Ambassador that is documented in these very forums as harassing members and non-members, then it proves AMSAT-NA has the problems of which many have spoken.

AMSAT-NA members want to know why the AMSAT-NA satellites fail (or don’t even operate) at an alarming rate. Members aren’t impressed by smoke and mirrors that legacy, incumbents use to keep people from asking questions or publicizing problems.

As always, I back-up my posts and questions which credible information.

The continued bad press AMSAT-NA receives is not good at all but as I posted earlier. AMSAT-NA leadership just wants people to not notice or question, the continued failure of AMSAT-NA satellites as compared to those of their peer organizations.

How long has AO-73 been operating as compared to AO-85/91/92/95 and HO-107? Facts are amazing things.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2020, 02:08:17 PM by WE4B »
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AF5CC

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Re: Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2020, 02:39:41 PM »

It does seem that AO27 had a much longer life than some of the more recent satellites.  SO50 is still going strong also.  Hasn't that been around for at least 15 years?

73 John AF5CC
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WE4B

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Re: Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2020, 02:49:30 PM »

AO-27 has been around since the 90s. It was one of the first satellites that I ever used, followed by some of the RS birds. It’s batteries continue to operate with what seems to be a nominal value. It’s a fun satellite.
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WE4B

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Re: Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2020, 03:31:54 PM »

Now we have the VP of Engineering of AMSAT-NA who is, once again, asking others to do legwork he should be doing:

https://www.amsat.org/pipermail/amsat-bb/2020-December/080457.html

As a paid, AMSAT-NA member, I expect the VPE to be able to look at telemetry data himself and report out to stakeholders. I guess he’s, once again, just too busy (his words in regard to the AO-92 failure) to do it himself.

Why can’t anyone tell AMSAT-NA members why the batteries on the satellites fail so much more quickly than those of others’ organizations?
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WE4B

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Re: Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2020, 10:33:12 PM »

On the 0541z descending pass over North America, AO-91 turned off as the satellite crossed the southern boundary of the U.S. These charts which show the battery health of the satellite tell the story. This has happened to AO-85, AO-92 and now AO-91. One time can be written off but three times is a trend. We need to understand why this is happening. I'm not an engineer but, as someone that uses statistics in a professional career, I understand that there are issues with AMSAT-NA cube sat batteries and/or charging systems.



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WE4B

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Re: Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2020, 10:38:15 PM »

I've always been impressed with how the command/control stations for AO-73 aka FUNcube have managed that satellite. It was launched in 2013 and the command/control stations will activate it or put it into a safe mode if they see battery issues which could come from times of full eclipse or full sunlight which could cause heating issues. AO-73 is still, very much, alive and well and is a very easy satellite to use. AMSAT-NA doesn't seem to manage their satellites as closely as AO-73 is managed or, at least, doesn't update users about any management like we get for AO-73.
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W9FIB

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Re: Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2020, 05:11:24 AM »


Believe it or not, hams can think for themselves.

Just speaking for myself - as always: How 'bout taking your energy towards an organization with which you DO align yourself? Because your incessant, repeated, rambling rants are really repulsive, IMHO.
Clint Bradford K6LCS

Oh my...what professionalism on display...again.

And yes...I can think for myself. That is why I call out your rantings and wonder why you represent an organization in such a manner.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

WE4B

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Re: Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2020, 10:00:52 AM »

Oh my...what professionalism on display...again.

And yes...I can think for myself. That is why I call out your rantings and wonder why you represent an organization in such a manner.

I started this thread because hams can think for themselves. Obviously the Ambassador doesn't want hams to think for themselves and wants to stifle any discussion among hams when it comes to a subject that doesn't show AMSAT-NA in the best light. He does this by attempting to derail threads. The AMSAT-NA President made it clear in another thread that he condones the behavior of the Ambassador and that he will not follow the policies of AMSAT-NA to conduct a fair and impartial investigation. In fact, he won't conduct any investigation. Because AMSAT-NA is well documented for not following its own bylaws, rules and policies, people realize that AMSAT-NA is just a club house for the legacy, incumbent Board members and their appointed cronies i.e. the President.

Now, let's get back to the impeding failure of AO-91. The failure of this satellite is exactly like that of AO-85 and AO-92. For those of us that use statistics daily, in the real world, in a professional setting, this is a trend. Trends happen for a reason. Trends are not random events. Trends have root causes. Trends can be analyzed. Trends can be corrected but only if they are properly analyzed.

Looking at the data for AO-91, it seems to me (an untrained amateur) that there is an issue with a battery. We've seen this before (AO-85, AO-92) and that leads me to some initial questions:

1. Other org's satellites 'seem' to have better luck with their batteries. Why?
2. How are batteries selected and tested before being installed into the satellite?
3. Does the design of the charging circuit lead to the batteries prematurely failing?

I have more questions but these are my initial ones. Here's a current snapshot of AO-91's battery situation. It looks like the batteries charge when in sun but when in eclipse, because of a bad cell, the voltage quickly drops. This is exactly what AO-92 looked like when it was dying. AMSAT-NA has issues with either/or batteries or the charging circuit or both of these. What is being done to correct this problem on future satellites or will we just keep spending money on launches of satellites that fail prematurely?

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WE4B

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Re: Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2020, 01:59:59 PM »

I will, once again, state that I'm not an EE but just a concerned observer. It appears that Cell A on AO-91 keeps quickly discharging while the satellite is in eclipse. The other batteries appear to still be okay. This is similar to previous failures on the other Fox satellites. I can't help but wonder about the charging circuit used in the design. Is there any battery balancing involved? Something keeps causing these common failures. This is were open source hardware/software would be handy so we could all take a look at the design and code. Here's another snapshot of Cell A and how it keeps discharging:

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WE4B

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Re: Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2020, 06:41:55 AM »

AO-91 continues to go into Safe Mode as Cell A quickly discharges. This issue will not get better, it will only get worse. When AO-91 fails, AMSAT-NA will not have an FM satellite in orbit. While I am a proponent of new designs and modes, I do feel it is important to FM satellites as they do attract new users. AMSAT-NA touts itself as wanting to promote STEM and, as such, needs to consider FM. At this point, that sounds more reasonable and important than spending more money on GOLF and GOLF-T but before launching anything else, AMSAT-NA has to understand why there have been consistent, almost predictable, failures of batteries on AMSAT-NA satellites. As I have stated, this is a documented trend, not just a random event. Here's a screenshot I just took of Cell A on AO-91:

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K6LCS

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Re: Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2020, 07:04:04 AM »

Don’t dismiss AO-91 just yet ... from the Philippines:

“ Another good AO-91 pass! Satellite was used the whole pass, it did not enter safe mode!! Thanks for the contact YC2YIZ (Indonesia), 9W2NCS, 9W8DNX, and 9W2UPI (Malaysia).”
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Clint Bradford, K6LCS
AMSAT Ambassador, ARRL Affiliated Club Coordinator
http://www.work-sat.com
909-999-SATS

WE4B

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Re: Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2020, 08:37:15 AM »

The batteries in AO91 are not mystically healing themselves. During the 0500z pass over North America last night, it went into Safe Mode halfway through the pass. Would you like to hear the recording of it doing so?

I seem to recall a few years ago someone saying the batteries on SO-50 were failing. That was fake news just like the batteries aboard AO-91 healing themselves is fake news.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 08:41:47 AM by WE4B »
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K6LCS

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Re: Another failing AMSAT-NA satellite
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2020, 08:53:01 AM »

>> ... The batteries in AO91 are not mystically healing themselves ...

No one said they were.

>> ... someone saying the batteries on SO-50 were failing ...

Never saw that stated. It is a fact that rechargeable batteries use some of their charge when not being illuminated. That is called, "physics." But using the term "failing?" Never saw that.

>> ... That was fake news just like the batteries aboard AO-91 healing themselves is fake news.

Who wrote that the batteries were "healing" themselves?

Better yet - for the good of amateur radio - just don't reply.

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Clint Bradford, K6LCS
AMSAT Ambassador, ARRL Affiliated Club Coordinator
http://www.work-sat.com
909-999-SATS
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