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Author Topic: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!  (Read 2944 times)

KX2T

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FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« on: December 30, 2020, 06:41:58 AM »

These are some numbers out of Mr. Sherwood's lab on the new FTDX10 first batch, RMDR@2.5khz 118db, DR@2Khz 107, DR@2Khz P1 104, Blocking at 100Khz 141db but noise limited ( Yaesu are you paying attention here )IF rejection is 91db at 9.005Mhz, Ultimate channel selectivity@500Hz >105db but @2.4Khz >100db ( Yaesu screwed the pouch here cause if they would have used the same 3Khz roofing filter at 3Khz this number would have been higher, penny wise but pound foolish ). Plus what's up with the blocking spec at being noise limited at 100Khz separation but the RMDR@ 2.5Khz is 118db which is very respectable.

These lab numbers seem dam good but there is room for improvement so I guess we will see on what Yaesu might do with the next firmware upgrade if any but for now this radio seem to best my 7300 but its still not close to replacing my 7610 but its a dam good backup but maybe Yaesu is reading these forum and taking notes. Before these numbers were posted I would say that it seemed just about in line the way it seemed with my listening experience with this radio against what I have in my shack. On CW it was dam good but on SSB they used a cheap roofing scheme and you have to rely on the DSP chip to clean things up on the alternate channel selectivity, the 7610 is north of -110db and you can hear this by a side by side comparo, but for the asking price not bad. After the 101D I guess I expected better but this radio kills the FTDX3000 I owned for more than 4 years.

These numbers were taken from one of the FTDX10 FB ham's who posted these with permission from Mr. Sherwood yesterday, I would be very interested if Yaesu can improve them in some areas with a firmware/software upgrade, my guess will see....
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K9IUQ

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2020, 04:58:58 PM »

Let me help this thread out, it seems like if I do not participate in a Topic on the eHam SDR forum, few hams give their views. OTOH when I do participate it usually ends up in an attack K9IUQ thread because I tend to be intentionally controversial to get hams talking. And Posting is good for eHams bottom line..

The other FTDX10 Topic has basically degenerated into an attack K9IUQ thread.

Let us try to make this thread more informative about the FTDX10.

Here is what I found out:

I just took a peak at Sherwoods new list and #1 is the FTDX101 and the #3 is the FTDX10. Not so bad huh? I can remember when the Sherwoods List was the Holy Grail for the Flexlovers UNTIL they got knocked off of the #1 spot. Now they never mention the Sherwood list, except to disrespect it  :) :) :) :)

For the diehard Icom Lovers, the Icom 7610 is now at the #19 spot and the 7300 is at #21.

Now we are going to hear ad-nauseum about how Sherwoods List does not mean anything, blah blah blah blah, whine whine my radio is not in the top 10 so Sherwoods list is meaningless. 

The fact is his list does has meaning and does sell radios like it or not.

I say great job Yaesu, getting a $1600 radio into the top 3 of the Sherwood List  is a real accomplishment. In fact the  FTDX10 is the ONLY under $1700 radio in the top 20 radios.... WOWwwwwwwwww
 
Stan K9IUQ
« Last Edit: December 30, 2020, 05:05:20 PM by K9IUQ »
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K0UA

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2020, 07:32:54 PM »

That is a noteworthy achievement.  Good job Yaesu.

I am shot thru the heart that my beloved 7300 has fallen to number 21 and is no longer in the top 20.  I wonder how many other rigs under a Grand are in the top 20?

One thing for certain rigs are getting better as time goes by, and if you are not innovating you are losing market share.

More choices and higher performance in modern rigs just makes it better for the consumer.
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73  James K0UA

KX2T

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2020, 10:07:58 PM »

Yes Jim, your ham radio dollar buys a better radio today then if did going back to 2010. I still liked the two 7300's I owned and still have my 7610 but this Ten which replaces my 7300 is surprising, the more I operate it the more I like it and for its size this would make an excellent radio to go on a mini DX island with, the CW performance really shines, on SSB the factory default RX bandwidth is 3K so I find I must use the width control to keep the jokers off my back but its just another thing to get accustomed too, in the Icom you can set bandwidth to memory this radio you adjust on the fly but your always adjusting no bandwidth pre sets.
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N2DTS

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2020, 05:32:34 AM »

Maybe they can fix the bandwidth thing in a firmware update.
Does Yaesu ever provide firmware updates?
Does the radio allow it?

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K9IUQ

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2020, 05:35:26 AM »

That is a noteworthy achievement.  Good job Yaesu.

I am shot thru the heart that my beloved 7300 has fallen to number 21 and is no longer in the top 20.  I wonder how many other rigs under a Grand are in the top 20?

Yes, that achievement somewhat surprised me as I figured the FtDX10 at it's price would be down around #20 in the S. List. However I failed to remember the truism: The apple never falls far from the tree, the tree in this case being the Top Dog of Sherwoods List - - the FTDX101..


At a present $1700 price range the FTDX10 beat out many higher priced radios, Will this equate to higher sales, hard to say. The Icom 7300 is still the Value King IMO. I believe value sells more radios than Sherwoods list.

FWIW there are NO rigs under a Grand in Sherwoods Top 20. The Cheapest radio in the Top 20 is the FTDX10..

Stan K9IUQ
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K9IUQ

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2020, 05:49:31 AM »

Maybe they can fix the bandwidth thing in a firmware update.
Does Yaesu ever provide firmware updates?
Does the radio allow it?

There is NO RX bandwidth issue, Yaesu just does RX Bandwidth control in a different way than Icom. Icom forces you to setup 3 choosable RX bandwidths and then if you want to get a different bandwidth you have to adjust the Shift controls. This way of doing things gets you there but it is not as easy as the Yaesu way.

Yaesu allows you to constantly adjust the RX bandwidth with one width knob, in addition it also has a shift knob if you only want to vary the bandwidth on one side. This makes bandwidth adjustment much easier than Icom's way.

As a ham who has used the Icom RX bandwidth way for 20 years and the Yaesu RX bandwidth way for 1 year, the Yaesu way is slightly easier but in NO WAY a game changer.
 
From my experience, I suggest that Yaesu provides Firmware updates about twice as fast as Flexradio.

Stan K9IUQ
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KX2T

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2020, 06:46:01 AM »

Stan I didn't mean its an issue but I was coming from two Icoms and used to there three tier bandwidth system so when I first got it on SSB it seemed not as selective that was because the default bandwidth was set at 3Khz not 2.5 or 2.7 so it was more like just getting used to there system that was all. As far as TX bandwidth its biggest setting is 50-3050Hz but I am sure like on there 3000 they will have a firmware upgrade to bring it out to 4Khz anything more and IMO is a waste of space!
 At first I wasn't sure I really cared for the radio when I first powered it up but like everything these days with some sort of devices that might be effected by a static electric charge I did a factory reset and that cleared the radio's audio just fine plus I really like that they incorporated a like parametric EQ on the RX audio as well.
I did take the bottom cover off to see were the 300Hz filter was installed but was surprised that the 3Khz roof was only two crystals so when I hooked up a signal generator to the radio I started to check the bandwidth between the 12Khz and 3Khz roof and could see a difference, not as much as the the one in the FTDX3000 I had which had a slightly more aggressive roofing filter but since the two crystal roof seemed to me that it might be just devices stuffed into the circuit I had to confirmed they worked and they did. I assume that was a space and cost saving thing for the design plus in there past the roofing filters in like a FT2000 didn't make much difference but these do also Icom did the same thing in roofing filters in the superhets, companies have realized they just can't place components onto a board for add copy but they have to work as well.
The DSP devices used on the Ten and the 101 have been improved upon, the NR or DNR works well, its different than Icom's NR were it almost kills the noise completely at time, there is some kind of digital artifacts but at least it doesn't sound like the signal is under water.
All in all I feel good about the purchase, to me the radio is worth the price of admission, after seeing the real Sherwood lab test not just the list I am sure that will help this radio's sales and this time Yaesu did come out with a K3s killer not like Kenwoods TS590 were they thought it would but didn't. I also thing that this K4 is not going to be any better than these new Yaesu's unless you buy the K4 loaded up with everything at almost $6K plus and the K4 is not yet in production.
I feel that Icom will have to look at a new radio to compete with this one as well cause it clearly out classes the 7300 IMO, I think a radio between there 7300 and 7610 with an improved digi select, larger display, DVI out might be something to compete with this Ten but right now the FRDX10 is becoming a real TEN in the marketplace.
For all the Flex and Anan lovers when your TX audio goes south in a middle of a rag chew or when your working that new one and you have to do a re boot plus do the same with your computer I will have already worked that new one or never miss a beat in the middle of the rag chew. No thanks to the black box radio's I am a Knob Nazi!
I know Stan you like my last comment....
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K0UA

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2020, 07:05:15 AM »

Knob Nazi!... now that was a new term for me.  :)
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73  James K0UA

K9IUQ

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2020, 07:20:21 AM »

Stan I didn't mean its an issue but I was coming from two Icoms

the K4 is not yet in production.

No thanks to the black box radio's I am a Knob Nazi!

I know Stan you like my last comment....

Yes, I knew you did not take the RX Bandwidth control as an issue, but N2Flexlover wanted to make it an issue. It is of course a non-issue, different Manufacturers, different control.

I too am a Knob Lover, my affair with Flexradio and mandatory Computer Control was short lived. Mainstream hams agree, look at the sales of the Knobbed 7300. Flexradio and Elecraft will never become a Mainstream Radio, they will continue to serve small numbers of die hard followers similar to what Ten-Tec did until their demise..

From what I gather and read on the net the K4 is still Promise Ware and many who put down payments on one are moving on. Even hams with deep pocket$ will not wait until eternity for a Promise Radio.

Outside of the lack of 2 receivers the only real thing missing from the 10 over the 101 is the VC Tune. The FTDX10 does not have VC Tune which I believe is one of the best features on my 101MP. Even after a year of ownership I am still amazed at what the VC Tune can achieve.

YESSSSSS Jim, I like your last comment, there may be hope for you yet.  ;) Also I really like your new QRZ.com page, nice job. Gotta love that FT8 comment too..   :) :) :)

Stan K9IUQ


« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 07:27:10 AM by K9IUQ »
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N2DTS

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2020, 08:19:05 AM »

Does the 7300 and 7610 not have a dual passband control to control the bandwidth?
Real hams, ones that are smart, know how to use the controls on the radio!
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K9IUQ

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2020, 09:03:34 AM »

Does the 7300 and 7610 not have a dual passband control to control the bandwidth?
Real hams, ones that are smart, know how to use the controls on the radio!

Icom's Twin PassBandTuning or PBT shifts the IF freq up or down,

The Yaesu has a continuously variable width control that adjusts both sides of the passband equally, it also has a Shift Control that adjusts just one side of the passband or both sides individually making it very versatile. Its end result is similar to Icom's PBT.

Stan  K9IUQ
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 09:10:21 AM by K9IUQ »
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N2DTS

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2020, 09:18:10 AM »

Real hams know that allows one to vary the bandwidth to whatever they want.
There are even video's on line to show how it works for those new to radio.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMR2rEiWLIE
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 09:22:55 AM by N2DTS »
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KX2T

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2020, 09:18:59 AM »

Hey Ditsy here likes AM phone but to be honest this ESSB stuff is for the birds and listening beyond 3Khz just brings in more noise to the bandwidth of the signal not any more intelligibility soo trying to talk with these ESSB guys is talking to a wall. Extended hi end beyond 3.5Khz and base going below 50Hz is a joke, these signals sound like radio Ka Ka, in other words CRAP but someone somewhere think they sound good.

Most of the guys who started the ESSB stuff did not go beyond 3.5 or 4Khz they messaged the audio in between to give them the best sound without frigging boom box bass or squeaky highs and for SSB signals they almost sounded like broadcast quality, I will also add they had that radio voice but these morons who don't have that type of voice think they can but instead sound like over run diarrhea.

Yes the VC tune would have been a nice call but maybe they might come out with an in between rig with that feature but the price point would compete with the 101D or maybe make a separate optional front end tune box that would be governed by the cat controls out of the tuner option port. This is why I keep my 7610 and if I change my main station radio it would be the 101D. There are only a hand full of rigs that have a front end pre selector that works well built in and they are from Yaesu, Icom and or that overly expensive German radio and BTW the Flex 6600 has 7th order contest style filters but when you open up another slice as they call it it then goes to 3 order band pass filters, WTF is that its like you get that slice of pizza without the cheese!
I like the fact that Yaesu did use there Parametric EQ on the RX side as well as TX, I would assume that the 101 series is also the same and I find it easier and nicer to set up then a 10 band EQ which will drive most hams on the air crazy cause they are calling into QSO just to check there audio, to me this turns armature radio backwards to CB!
 This is why there are soo many different types of rigs but competition grade is not with some of the black boxes yet, they still need a whole lot of extra hardware to do the job in a competitive station.
Stan don't get me started with FT8 which is like to me DX with artificial insemination, working a signal below the noise floor is not what I call hearing them but your computer does, this IA stuff to me is not REAL Radio!
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KX2T

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2020, 09:22:42 AM »

The shift/width or dual PBT effectively come out to the same results, when one gets used to one style you just have to re calibrate your thinking for the other. The more I play with the Ten the more its really a 10 for the investment, only thing that is waste ware on me is the 3D display, I have to drink a few Jack's and gingers and then I kind of like it!
When I pump it into my 24" monitor on the side the 3D is kinda cool though but the small screen doesn't do it justice.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 09:24:54 AM by KX2T »
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