Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 ... 9   Go Down

Author Topic: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!  (Read 2947 times)

K6OK

  • Member
  • Posts: 151
Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #15 on: December 31, 2020, 09:36:00 AM »

I have an Icom 7300.  Should I upgrade to an FTDX10? 

 - One disappointment I have with the 7300 is only one SO-239 and no RX ant input, but it's understandable at the $1,000 price point.   For $1700 I'd expect the FTDX10 to at least have an RX input or two SO-239's.  It doesn't, and I see that as a major point against the Yaesu.

- The 7300's filter choices are much better.  The Yaesu uses analog roofers and the choices are few.  To get a 300 kHz filter it's optional and you have to pay extra, open the rig and install it.  With the 7300 I can have 50, 100, 200, 300, etc bandwidths with a turn of a knob.

- Also on filters: I am very skeptical that any analog roofer at 300 kHz will be as good or better than a DSP filter in a non-hybrid SDR.  In crowded band conditions analog filters create audio mush and ringing that raises the noise floor.  I could be wrong, maybe Yaesu has a 300 kHz filter that is as clean as the 7300's digital filters.  We'll see.

- The Yaesu's 107 dB narrow dynamic range vs. the 7300's 97 db: in the real world, how often will this make a difference?  Both numbers are considered contest grade performance.  I'm not sure that's reason enough alone to fork out $800 or $900 on a trade-in.

Lastly, one criticism I have for both: it's 2020 and we still don't have ethernet RJ-45's standard on rigs?  No USB 3.0?  Icom's CI-V port with a single wire is horribly outdated, slow and prone to data collisions.  And the Yaesu gives us an RS-232 ... in 2020?  Just my opinion, but with the increasing popularity of remote operations all rigs should have ethernet (or wireless) connectivity and be IP-addressable.

The FTDX10 looks to be a fine rig but I'm not seeing a compelling reason to trade in my 7300 for one, at least not yet.

Jim K6OK
Logged

N2DTS

  • Member
  • Posts: 1368
Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #16 on: December 31, 2020, 09:36:32 AM »

I would pick the 10 over the 7300, if they fix the 2d scope.
The waterfall is fine, they just need to average the spectrum display.
Bet the antenna tuner works better also.

What does it look like if you plug in a computer monitor?
The Flex just looks bigger with no more detail so its a waste for me, you can run it into the computer for much better but standalone you might as well just use the built in display.
The 7300 has a nice display but no outboard display.

My Flex 6400m has the shift and width controls, they are fine.
What I really like about the Flex is the filter is shown on the display so you can move it so you are on the edge of something you don't want to hear, by sight, that makes it very easy.
 
Logged

N2DTS

  • Member
  • Posts: 1368
Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #17 on: December 31, 2020, 09:40:24 AM »

A roofing filter is just a roofing filter, you ALSO have the dsp filters.
The roofing filter is just so really strong close signals do not wipe out the front end or overload the ADC.
3 KHz is fine except for hard core cw contesters and even then, the 10 likely is better then almost any other radio in that respect.

I agree about the antenna ports and the ethernet.
But they DO make the 101....

Logged

K6OK

  • Member
  • Posts: 151
Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2020, 10:06:44 AM »

... To get a 300 kHz filter it's optional and you have to pay extra ... I am very skeptical that any analog roofer at 300 kHz will be as good or better than a DSP filter

oops, I meant 300 Hz filter, not 300 kHz
Logged

K6OK

  • Member
  • Posts: 151
Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2020, 10:12:47 AM »

A roofing filter is just a roofing filter, you ALSO have the dsp filters.
The roofing filter is just so really strong close signals do not wipe out the front end or overload the ADC.

Well, an analog roofer by definition has to create mixing products and harmonic mush to some degree.  Can a DSP later in the chain clean it up? I'm skeptical, but maybe Yaesu has worked some magic on this. I don't know.
Logged

N2DTS

  • Member
  • Posts: 1368
Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2020, 10:39:43 AM »

Have you looked at the Sherwood list?
He measures almost everything and the ftdx10 is #3 out of 65? radios.
So, yes, it works great it seems. Everyone is doing it now.
Another thing you might be mixing up is the old radio's had the first IF up around 70 MHz where filters did not work well at all.
These are at 9 MHz I think where they can work great.

So you get TWO filters, the roofing filter, and the sdr/dsp filter that you can dial in to whatever you want.




A roofing filter is just a roofing filter, you ALSO have the dsp filters.
The roofing filter is just so really strong close signals do not wipe out the front end or overload the ADC.

Well, an analog roofer by definition has to create mixing products and harmonic mush to some degree.  Can a DSP later in the chain clean it up? I'm skeptical, but maybe Yaesu has worked some magic on this. I don't know.
Logged

K9IUQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 3448
Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #21 on: December 31, 2020, 10:52:30 AM »

I'm skeptical, but maybe Yaesu has worked some magic on this. I don't know.

QST and Sherwood knows and now our friend who started this topic knows what I have known since I bought my 101mp a year ago.... Many others Know also as they know how to read reviews and eham posts. However many hams are reluctant to admit that the radio they have on their desk is NOT the best performance radio in the world.

KX2T knows, he has a 7300 and a 7610 and a FTDX10, ask him about the "magic". The FDX10 like the FTDX101 has both Roofing filters and DSP filters,

Per the Dec 2019 QST Review:

"for now, if you want the transceiver with the best performing close-in dynamic range,
a downconverting design with roofing filters near the antenna is required."


This hybrid arrangement kicks radio butt as the Dec 2019 QST FTDX101D review, the QST Dec 2020 FTDX101MP review and the Sherwoods new list that puts the FTDX101 at #1 and FTDX10 at #3 demonstrates.

Stan K9IUQ
« Last Edit: December 31, 2020, 10:54:53 AM by K9IUQ »
Logged

N2DTS

  • Member
  • Posts: 1368
Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #22 on: December 31, 2020, 11:58:26 AM »

There is more to life then close in dynamic range.
It is important in some situations, like multi contest stations or if the guy next door has a KW+ on the air all the time.

There is a lot more to picking a radio then any one spec.
The SMART hams know that.
Logged

K7JQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 2602
Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #23 on: December 31, 2020, 12:51:47 PM »

The *BEST* radio is the one that fits YOUR wants, needs, and budget. Whether it's an Icom IC-718 at $600, or an Elecraft K4HD at $6,000 (whenever the heck that becomes available). Unless money is no object or you want bragging rights to impress people, buying a radio where you'll never use 90% of its capabilities doesn't make much sense to me. Nor does forking out $6,000, and then not being able to make a few mortgage payments :-\.

Then again, I'm an old fart that's gained a wealth of common sense (IMO) ;D.

Bob K7JQ
Logged

N4UE

  • Member
  • Posts: 985
    • HomeURL
Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2020, 01:22:25 PM »

Hi. Happy New Year to all!
The FTDX10 looks like a nice radio. I have a bunch of offerings from the big 3, After watching some YouTube videos (excellent display). I was kinda surprised that there haven't been any negative comments about the fact, that like the 7300, it has only one antenna connector.
The 7300 took a beating over that issue.
I have a 7300 and the single antenna connector issue was solved by the Funkamateur FA-AS Automatic Antenna Switch.
IMHO, the best kept secret in ham radio.

ron
N4UE
Logged
If you're not the lead sled dog, the view never changes......

K0AP

  • Member
  • Posts: 278
Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2020, 06:49:36 PM »

Hi. Happy New Year to all!
The FTDX10 looks like a nice radio. I have a bunch of offerings from the big 3, After watching some YouTube videos (excellent display). I was kinda surprised that there haven't been any negative comments about the fact, that like the 7300, it has only one antenna connector.
The 7300 took a beating over that issue.
I have a 7300 and the single antenna connector issue was solved by the Funkamateur FA-AS Automatic Antenna Switch.
IMHO, the best kept secret in ham radio.

ron
N4UE

If the 7300 had 2 antenna connectors it would have been a $2000-$3000 radio... not one grand. Not sure why people would take an issue with that. I could be wrong but I don't know of any newer model radio with a price around $1k that has two antenna connectors. I see people on eHAM leave bad reviews because the radio they bought does not have 2 antenna connectors. This is totally unfair and those reviews IMO should be removed.

73 Dragan K0AP
Logged

N6YWU

  • Posts: 362
    • HomeURL
Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #26 on: December 31, 2020, 07:09:23 PM »

Just my opinion, but with the increasing popularity of remote operations all rigs should have ethernet (or wireless) connectivity and be IP-addressable.

Couldn't agree more.  These high-end rigs without a network data port seem to be just expensive planned obsolescence (maybe they meet a temporary need for multi-multi contest station ops).

An iPhone 12 mini is capable of more Gigaflops of SDR DSP than the processors in any of these rigs (except for the ones with internal FPGAs).  But that compute power can't be used unless there's a way to get high bandwidth digital data steam(s) in or out from high dynamic range IF or front ends of rigs, and an API to use such.  Think of being able to run any filter widths or shapes or phase delays you can think of, machine learning for noise reduction or audio enhancement, pre or post distortion, other new DSP algorithms, etc.  And not having to wait for manufacturer updates.

Even inexpensive kit rigs such as the Hermes Lite 2 manages to include a 1Gig ethernet port.
Logged

N2DTS

  • Member
  • Posts: 1368
Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2020, 08:06:27 PM »

Sorry, but no way a relay and an antenna connector on the back of the radio cost $1000.00.
More like $5.00.
RX port, another $2.50.
Real estate on the back panel might be more of an issue.




Hi. Happy New Year to all!
The FTDX10 looks like a nice radio. I have a bunch of offerings from the big 3, After watching some YouTube videos (excellent display). I was kinda surprised that there haven't been any negative comments about the fact, that like the 7300, it has only one antenna connector.
The 7300 took a beating over that issue.
I have a 7300 and the single antenna connector issue was solved by the Funkamateur FA-AS Automatic Antenna Switch.
IMHO, the best kept secret in ham radio.

ron
N4UE

If the 7300 had 2 antenna connectors it would have been a $2000-$3000 radio... not one grand. Not sure why people would take an issue with that. I could be wrong but I don't know of any newer model radio with a price around $1k that has two antenna connectors. I see people on eHAM leave bad reviews because the radio they bought does not have 2 antenna connectors. This is totally unfair and those reviews IMO should be removed.

73 Dragan K0AP
Logged

W9IQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 8866
Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2021, 03:21:59 AM »

It is often not a cost, space or capabilities issue but rather one of deliberate differentiation between models and competitors. As a manufacturer, If you put all of the features into your lowest cost model, the sales of your intended higher end (and typically more profitable) models will suffer.

- Glenn W9IQ
Logged
- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

VK6HP

  • Member
  • Posts: 1222
Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2021, 04:46:08 AM »

I guess the ultimate example of that is the progressive feature unlock in a lot of test gear, Glenn.  At the head level I can rationalize the marketing, R&D amortization, real cost of software engineering, production efficiency etc. And yet..there's always something innately "unfair" about buying capability that's already in your hardware!  I don't think it'd be well received in the transceiver world somehow.

73, Peter
Logged
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 ... 9   Go Up