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Author Topic: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!  (Read 2944 times)

VA3VF

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2021, 01:49:55 PM »

Quote
My point is that lab RX shoot-off's need to revised to also provide a pragmatic RF noise pollution assessment.  Nowadays, the ability to mitigate RF noise pollution is way more important than parochial RX measurements that provide benefit for just a few hams. So an additional criteria (RF pollution mitigation, if you will) should become a additional mainstay comparison criteria.

Very well stated. Lab and real world conditions were never the same, but the gap is widening by the day.
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N2DTS

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2021, 05:29:16 AM »

All noise is additive though.
If a radio adds any noise to a signal in the noise, it will be harder to copy.

I have a really quiet homebrew RX that outperforms or equals some of the best modern receivers because it adds almost no noise.
No RF amp, one mixer, all low gain stages, a very high Q preselector.
Select the dummy load and turn the volume up on most receivers and you hear a lot of noise.
The ideal receiver would be silent, even with the gain all the way up.
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G8FXC

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2021, 06:01:05 AM »

I wonder how many hams live in a location this has such a low signal to noise environment to take real advantage of that type of week signal work, in most households there is enough RFI/EMI to kill a hoarse so unless you are talking about a lab test bench your kidding yourself with thinking you will hear these difference in most stations you try and compare these radio's at. ...

I would certainly like to see tests that include an assessment of the receiver's ability to produce readable signals in the face of high levels of RFI. Like many modern urban hams, I have a noise floor of s7 or higher across most of the HF bands - mostly caused by ADSL and VDSL internet traffic being pushed over wires that were never designed to carry it. I have wondered casually about the possibility of upgrading my 7300, but come to the conclusion that I could easily end up spending two or three thousand more on a high-end radio only to find that I have an s7 noise floor again.

Martin (G8FXC)
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N6YWU

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2021, 08:05:48 AM »

All noise is additive though.
If a radio adds any noise to a signal in the noise, it will be harder to copy.

True for analog receivers.  But not necessarily true for direct sampling digital SDRs. The mathematical theory is that adding a certain amounts of certain types of noise can potentially raise weak narrow-band signals above the ADC’s finite quantization noise floor, via applying DSP processing gain.
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N2DTS

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2021, 09:11:33 AM »

Yes, there is much about digital processing I do not understand.
And why a $215.00 12 bit Hermes lite 2 outperforms a 7300 in weak signal work is one of them.

I had a few 7300's and thought they were fine in that respect.
Does not the phase noise of the clocks come into play here?
Surely the 7300 has a better chp then whatever the Hermes is using...
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N6YWU

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2021, 12:51:12 PM »

I wonder how many hams live in a location this has such a low signal to noise environment to take real advantage of that type of week signal work, in most households there is enough RFI/EMI to kill a hoarse so unless you are talking about a lab test bench your kidding yourself with thinking you will hear these difference in most stations you try and compare these radio's at. ...
I would certainly like to see tests that include an assessment of the receiver's ability to produce readable signals in the face of high levels of RFI. Like many modern urban hams, I have a noise floor of s7 or higher across most of the HF bands - mostly caused by ADSL and VDSL internet traffic being pushed over wires that were never designed to carry it. I have wondered casually about the possibility of upgrading my 7300, but come to the conclusion that I could easily end up spending two or three thousand more on a high-end radio only to find that I have an s7 noise floor again.

Perhaps a solution for urban radio operators will be SDR receivers capable of synchronous receive from multiple antennas, allowing future computer DSP multi-input noise reduction algorithms, perhaps with far more sophisticated algorithms than just diversity phasing and spectral subtraction.

Two current examples of radios might be the SDRPlay RSPDuo and the Red Pitaya 288-16.

Do any of the Big 3, 4 or 5 amateur transceiver manufacturers have dual antenna dual synchronous SDR receiver capability?
« Last Edit: January 04, 2021, 12:53:55 PM by N6YWU »
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N2DTS

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2021, 01:55:12 PM »

I think the 7610 can do that.
And even old Flex 5000's and the Anan radios.
Yaesu needs to catch up.
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WB8LBZ

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2021, 10:23:43 PM »

   One of my previous radios was an Anan 8000DLE (same receiver as the 7000) and it used the Power SDR software for control over Gigabit Ethernet. One software feature was called Diversity Reception which was really a noise cancelling in software between two antenna inputs.
   I have a 7610 and I don't think it can do that but if it can that would be great.

73, Larry  WB8LBZ
El Paso, TX
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K0UA

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2021, 08:01:22 AM »

   One of my previous radios was an Anan 8000DLE (same receiver as the 7000) and it used the Power SDR software for control over Gigabit Ethernet. One software feature was called Diversity Reception which was really a noise cancelling in software between two antenna inputs.
   I have a 7610 and I don't think it can do that but if it can that would be great.

73, Larry  WB8LBZ
El Paso, TX

While the 7610 has a "tracking" function, and certainly has two independent receivers  with different antenna ports if you like it doesn't do anything in the way of processing the two signals from the two receivers.  it will present one reciever in one ear and the other receiver in the other ear, it is up to your "head" to sort out the differences in the signals.  it is interesting to play with especially on the AM broadcast band. Set the tracking on, and take two very different antennas one on the main receiver and another on the the sub receiver and tune thru the band. You will hear some very interesting results. I often do this with my inverted L in the left and my LOG (Loop On Ground) in the right ear and you will often hear entirely different stations in each ear.
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73  James K0UA

KX2T

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2021, 12:27:52 PM »

I started this thread because the other threads in this forum was hijacked by other subjects besides the FTDX10, not about the 7610, 7300, Flex or Hermie's lite but it seems after two pages the original subject gets dumped!
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N2DTS

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #55 on: January 06, 2021, 01:26:30 PM »

The title is the lab numbers.
They are posted.
How important are they, which ones matter most?
Its not like anyone is paying to read this stuff...
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KX2T

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2021, 07:50:26 AM »

Hey Stan you were right on the money, another hijacked thread gone down the tubes by hams who own radio's not even related to the one the post is about, the real shame is Flex and also the Anan groups are very small numbers when you look at actually radio's sold to the Amateur radio public, the Number one seller is Icom but they also have other branches of the communications market that keeps them going as well. Number two is Yaesu and lest not forget how many radio systems they sell to China for other usages besides amateur's. Number three is Kenwood which still tries to go for the commercial two way radio market but they are not as forceful as they use to be cause they are a very small part of JVC.

Flex's claim to fame is being able to do remote station easy, there performance is good but its more for the ham that wants his GUI on a big screen monitor but they are still working on the extras like a better noise blanker and noise reduction system. Anan also has the GUI market as well, they really don't use any remote software so its in the shack type rig but they are leaders in noise reduction and noise blanking plus here again a very good RX section. For the hobbyist who want to go wide and try AM or have that wide ESSB sound these two radio's excel against all others so we are looking at a very small percentage of this market but for the majority of hams today they still prefer knobs to a mouse, they want some kind of computer control but for them every time there station computer has a glitch they don't wanna re boot the whole system. Bottom line there is something to be said for stand alone rigs today.
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K9IUQ

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #57 on: January 14, 2021, 10:38:14 AM »

Hey Stan you were right on the money, another hijacked thread gone down the tubes by hams who own radio's not even related to the one the post is about, the real shame is Flex

I am rarely wrong, before I post I carefully consider my facts that are always provable. Also I have learned from years of posting here  that it is fruitless trying to talk about facts or opinions with Know it all General Class Hams OR those clueless hams that Love Flexradio..... And yes I do get weary of K0UA's constant promotion in every thread at every opportunity of promoting his dear Icom 7610. Which are the main reasons I have not posted here for a while. Some hams have the need to always have the last post in a thread. N2FLEXLOVER/GENERALCLASS have at it.

LMAO
Stan K9IUQ
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 10:45:23 AM by K9IUQ »
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K0UA

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #58 on: January 14, 2021, 11:15:16 AM »

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And yes I do get weary of K0UA's constant promotion in every thread at every opportunity of promoting his dear Icom 7610

Hi Stan, I sure wish you would come over and try my 7610 for a while, I think you would like it.   Oh... bring by that Yaesu when you come, I would like to take a look at it too.  73  James K0UA......:)
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73  James K0UA

VE7DQ

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Re: FTDX10 Lab numbers first batch run at Rob's Lab notes!
« Reply #59 on: January 14, 2021, 07:45:08 PM »

Touché !   ;D
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