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Author Topic: License fee impacts?  (Read 696 times)

N2EY

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Re: License fee impacts?
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2021, 11:11:23 AM »

Everyone has been conditioned to pay more fees and taxes , yet receive less benefit from said fees and taxes.

It's called "inflation".

I've been an Extra for over 50 years. Had my present call for 43 years.

How am I receiving less benefit from my license now than in the past?

I don't buy the argument that it's "unfair" that our licensure is part of the budget.( It's always been that way!)

No it hasn't. Here's proof: (Note the period from 1964 to 1977.)

In 1933, the FRC (predecessor of the FCC) proposed a fee of $5 ($100.17 in 2019 dollars) for amateur operator licenses. In those days operator license terms were 3 years. This proposal was strongly opposed and was not enacted.

In 1954, the FCC proposed a fee of $3 ($28.93 in 2019 dollars) for amateur licenses. In those days, and until the early 1980s, license terms were 5 years. This proposal was strongly opposed and was not enacted.

In the early 1960s the FCC again proposed fees for amateur licenses, and this time the proposal was enacted despite strong opposition. The original effective date of January 1, 1964 was delayed a few months by a legal challenge, but by mid-March, 1964 the following fees were enacted:

New or renewed license: $4 ($33.45 in 2019 dollars)
Modified license: $2 ($16.72)
Special callsign: $20 ($167.25)

Novice and RACES licenses remained free.

Effective August 1, 1970, the FCC raised the above fees for amateur licenses to the following:

New or renewed license: $9 ($60.09 in 2019 dollars)
Modified license: $4 ($26.71)
Special callsign: $25 ($166.92)

Novice and RACES licenses remained free.

Effective March 1, 1975, the FCC lowered the above fees for amateur licenses to the following:

New or renewed license: $4 ($19.27 in 2019 dollars)
Modified license: $3 ($14.46)
Duplicate license: $2 ($9.64)
Special callsign: $25 ($120.46)

Novice and RACES licenses remained free.

Finally, effective January 1, 1977, FCC dropped all fees for amateur licenses. From then until now, all US amateur licenses have been free.

VE testing fees are set by the VECs, and go to pay the costs of conducting the test sessions - space rental, duplication, postage, etc. The current going rate seems to be $15, but VECs can set the fees higher, lower, or waive them entirely.

Modern vanity-call fees have varied over time - someone else can write their history.

In the above schedule of fees, a "new or renewed license" included the fee for taking the tests, pass or fail, for a new license or a license upgrade. A "modified" license meant a change of address or name, but not a license upgrade.

Special callsigns in those days followed different rules than today, but there were specific cases where an amateur could get a callsign that wasn't sequentially issued. The special-callsign fee was a one-time charge.

All 2019-equivalent prices are from the Westegg Inflation Calculator:

https://westegg.com/inflation/

It is left to the reader to figure the per-year cost of the above fees. Note that in the 1964-1977 time period, license terms were only 5 years.
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W6BP

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Re: License fee impacts?
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2021, 12:26:26 PM »

Thanks, Jim. I always enjoy your ham radio history posts.
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N2EY

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Re: License fee impacts?
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2021, 03:32:23 PM »

Thanks, Jim. I always enjoy your ham radio history posts.

If you meant me....you're welcome!

73 de Jim N2EY
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W9IQ

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Re: License fee impacts?
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2021, 03:41:12 PM »

I also appreciate your historical references, Jim. Please keep it up.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

G8FXC

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Re: License fee impacts?
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2021, 04:18:08 AM »

I also appreciate your historical references, Jim. Please keep it up.

- Glenn W9IQ

The difference to bear in mind when looking at an issue like this is the impact of IT. More than about sixty years ago, a function like licence issue would have been a heavily manual process. The applicant would have submitted a handwritten form together with payment - typically as a cheque or postal order. This would have arrived in a post room where it had to be opened, verified, the fee cashed (don't want to issue a licence if the cheque bounces!), the callsign allocated, licence printed, packaged up in an envelope and mailed back to the applicant. The information would have been recorded on a physical cardex system for future reference.

Even in the early days of IT systems, this would remain a fairly labour intensive process. The licence database would have become electronic, but applications would have still been received on paper through the post and would have had to be "keyed to disk". The callsign would be generated automatically and recorded in the electronic database, but they would then have had to print the licence document and physically mail it back to the applicant.

Fast forward to today - manual processing has reduced to virtually zero. Applications are submitted on-line via a web browser - no issues reading bad handwriting and all the basic data integrity checks will have been done in the browser before the data gets into the system. If the business rules mandate a check on an exam pass, that information will also be stored on IT systems and can be cross referenced without human intervention. Payment will be collected via a credit card - again no human intervention and an instant confirmation. The licence document is generated as a PDF file and emailed back to the applicant for them to print if they want a hard-copy. With modern program development tools, it is a pretty basic system to build and the running costs will be small assuming that it is hosted somewhere in the cloud. It really is very hard to justify any significant fee for it - round here it is completely free - and our government is not well known for giving things away.

Martin (G8FXC)
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KM1H

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Re: License fee impacts?
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2021, 09:18:30 AM »

Quote
It really is very hard to justify any significant fee for it - round here it is completely free - and our government is not well known for giving things away.

But doesnt everyone over there have to pay a fee/tax yearly for their TV?

Over here the ham fee wouldnt even come close to paying for all those union bureaucrats on the FCC payroll.
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SOFAR

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Re: License fee impacts?
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2021, 09:53:21 AM »

"Overview

You must have a TV Licence if you:

    watch or record programmes on a TV, computer or other device as they’re broadcast
    download or watch BBC programmes on iPlayer – live, catch up or on demand

A TV Licence costs £157.50 (£53 for black and white TV sets) for both homes and businesses."
https://www.gov.uk/tv-licence
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W9IQ

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Re: License fee impacts?
« Reply #37 on: January 05, 2021, 10:00:21 AM »

When I lived as an expat in the UK, it did raise some eyebrows in accounting when I submitted the bill for my TV license/licence on my expense report. The US centric accounting folks had never heard of such a thing.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KM1H

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Re: License fee impacts?
« Reply #38 on: January 05, 2021, 10:27:32 AM »

A little birdy just told me the $35 fee is approved by Charlie but not when it is applicable.


193. Rule effective date. As the Commission implements the changes to our application fee schedule, we anticipate that OMD, along with the Bureaus and Offices, may be required to update some of our licensing databases, payment instruction guides and/or adjust administrative internal procedures before we may begin accepting the new fees for certain categories of application fee payors. Accordingly, we direct the Office of Managing Director, in consultation with the relevant Offices and Bureaus, to cause a notice to be published in the Federal Register announcing when rule change(s) will become effective, once the relevant databases, guides, and internal procedures have been updated.

From the order:
As found on Page 4 of the Order, "Application fees collected by the Commission are deposited in the general fund of the U.S. Treasury and do not fund the Commission’s activities."

Crybabies can now do the honors of performing hari-kari pretty please and thank you.
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AC2EU

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Re: License fee impacts?
« Reply #39 on: January 05, 2021, 11:43:49 AM »

A little birdy just told me the $35 fee is approved by Charlie but not when it is applicable.
From the order:
As found on Page 4 of the Order, "Application fees collected by the Commission are deposited in the general fund of the U.S. Treasury and do not fund the Commission’s activities."

Crybabies can now do the honors of performing hari-kari pretty please and thank you.

So he money doesn't even go to support FCC activities, just goes to the general fund to be pissed away?
As pointed out earlier,  the Ham license is now done on-line, so there is very little , if any, labor involved in the process going forward. The internal cost is actually LESS than it was! why the fee now?

It's Another example of the govt generating  revenue to avoid fiscal responsibility. Hidden fees and taxes everywhere.

What surprises me is you "generous souls" are eager to pay the fee!
You must be "one percent-ers" or on the dole for it not to at least irk you a little.
And even the sheep say "baaaah"

SWMAN

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Re: License fee impacts?
« Reply #40 on: January 05, 2021, 12:22:44 PM »

Nope, it doesn't bother me a bit. It's only once every 10 years. If it was every year them I might begin to worry a little bit.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2021, 12:29:25 PM by SWMAN »
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N9LCD

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Re: License fee impacts?
« Reply #41 on: January 05, 2021, 12:48:45 PM »

IMO the pending license fee should repealed and replaced with a luxury tax on ham gear ranging from rigs, antennas, coax, power supplies, connectors -- anything used to get or stay on the air.

The proceeds of the excise tax collections would be used to grants to hams, young or senior, who otherwise would be unable to either get on the air or stay on the air.

Look at this way:  Instead of driving or keeping hams off the air like the license fee allegedly will do,
a luxury tax / grant system could put more hams on the air AND FILL UP THOSE BANDS!!!   :)

N9LCD 
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KM1H

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Re: License fee impacts?
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2021, 04:03:15 PM »

Quote
Look at this way:  Instead of driving or keeping hams off the air like the license fee allegedly will do,
a luxury tax / grant system could put more hams on the air AND FILL UP THOSE BANDS!!!

Less is better. At 400-500K hams that will be fine to keep what we have on MF-HF. As far as high UHF/microwaves  that is all dead air so stop wasting time trying to defend it and settle for reasonable smaller allotments.
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G8FXC

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Re: License fee impacts?
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2021, 01:16:14 AM »

Quote
It really is very hard to justify any significant fee for it - round here it is completely free - and our government is not well known for giving things away.

But doesnt everyone over there have to pay a fee/tax yearly for their TV?

Over here the ham fee wouldnt even come close to paying for all those union bureaucrats on the FCC payroll.

The TV licence fee is quite openly a revenue raising exercise - it funds the BBC. My point is that, with modern IT systems, the cost of issuing a ham radio licence is very low these days. Equally, the number of licences issued is so low that the associated fees will not register on the government's financial radar.

Martin (G8FXC)
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SOFAR

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Re: License fee impacts?
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2021, 04:33:15 AM »


The TV licence fee is quite openly a revenue raising exercise - it funds the BBC. My point is that, with modern IT systems, the cost of issuing a ham radio licence is very low these days. Equally, the number of licences issued is so low that the associated fees will not register on the government's financial radar.

Martin (G8FXC)
Interesting concept.
News outlets that rely on advertising dollars have many flaws.
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