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Author Topic: Head Phone "audio quality" between the FTdx-10/101d compared to the IC-7300  (Read 966 times)

W9KY

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I've owned the IC-7300 for a few years and trying to listen to CW using a pair of headphones while running the IC-7300 is giving these old "ears" a "Head ache" !!! A few posting have noted that the ham doing the review might have both the 7300 and the Ftdx 10 on the bench at the same time .  Listening while using my FTdx 3000 has been a night/day difference. So my question is to those who have the IC-7300 and maybe the new FTdx-10 or the FTdx-101d while listening to CW, is there a MARKED improvement in audio quality from what I think is a rather noisy/hiss prone IC-7300 compared to the newer Yaesu radios ??? 

Mike W9KY
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K0UA

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I've owned the IC-7300 for a few years and trying to listen to CW using a pair of headphones while running the IC-7300 is giving these old "ears" a "Head ache" !!! A few posting have noted that the ham doing the review might have both the 7300 and the Ftdx 10 on the bench at the same time .  Listening while using my FTdx 3000 has been a night/day difference. So my question is to those who have the IC-7300 and maybe the new FTdx-10 or the FTdx-101d while listening to CW, is there a MARKED improvement in audio quality from what I think is a rather noisy/hiss prone IC-7300 compared to the newer Yaesu radios ??? 

Mike W9KY

Mike one thing you can do to improve the audio for CW use when using the CW filter set is to set your receiver tone control for between 500 Hz on the low end and 700 Hz on the high end. This is done in the tone control menu. While this wont work quite as well as the APF in the 7610 or other higher end receivers, it will go a long way to making your CW filter performance sound better by several dB. If you haven't done that setting, it is certainly worthwhile to do so.

Contact me if you have any further questions about this.
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73  James K0UA

W8RMV

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Mike,
I sold my 7300 & 7610 because of what you noted.  I could not get them to sound as quiet as my 7410 & 7700.  I found that Icoms version of SDR is not suitable to my ears.
On the other hand, I have read several reports that the 7300/7610 are the quietest radios they had ever used.
So that must be the QTH variance effect.  And the biggest variable at the QTH is the operator.
I am sure some will say that I/you just don't know how to operate the radio, but you & I know that is not true/accurate.
There are many others who have noted what you/I have noted.

-Bob W8RMV an Icom Fanboy
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W6QW

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My IC-7300 has much more base-line noise than either my TS-890S or FT-2000, particularly on CW.  Here are a couple of suggestions, in addition to the tone control adjustment from the audio menu suggested by K0UA.

1. Use the noise reduction (NR button) - adjust the settings to your taste. I leave mine at "3" and use it on CW when listening to signals in the noise.

2. If using headphones, try one with better high frequency cut-off.  Like yourself, my Sennheiser headphones give me a headache after listening to CW for a long time.  My Audio-Technica BPHS1 headset, on the other hand, provides a better listening experience on the IC-7300 as that headset has a robust high frequency roll-off.   Likewise, the IC-7300 internal speaker accentuates higher audio frequencies so an external speaker with a high frequency cutoff will help mitigate the audio hash.
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KX2T

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Hi Mike I have owned two 7300's plus the FTDX3000 a few years back, just recently sold my backup 7300 and bought the FTDX10, I also own a 7610, I kind of get what your talking about with the high frequency hiss plus RX noise in the front end of the 7300. First off to make the 7300 more listenable I use the NR all the time set between 3-4, I also don't use the pre amp 1 on 15m or below unless I am trying to copy someone really weak and the band is going our but when the pre amp is on it add way too much noise to the RX even with the NR on, this is a shortcoming of a radio that sells in the kilobuck price range plus trying to cut off audio frequencies seems to roll off what you really hear. I also use good headphones or something like the heil Boom/headset IC but have replaced the earpads on all my headphones with good replacements off Amazon (adds to comfort for long hours in the chair). The 7610 is in a different league as far as audio distortion products, yes it does have some high frequency hiss but again a little NR goes a long way plus the audio itself is way cleaner than the 7300 ever was besides I have compared those two radio's side by side and to my ears with headphones there is a BIG DIFFERENCE. I am not trying to knock the 7300 but you get what you pay for plain and simple.

Now to the FTDX10, the audio of this radio is a cut above the FTDX3000 I had, its fuller and cleaner, not as clean as the 7610 but dam close plus you also have a bass, midrange and treble that you can extend +-6db or 18db. It seems like Yaesu got smart on this baby and added a great receiver to a clean audio chain, I am not sure what the THD spec will be until the ARRL gives a lab review but for its price range its dam good. The selectivity on CW is a notch above the 7300 and below the 7610 but when tested with a signal generator pupped into the RX its dam good, they all are a cut above many radio's that came out 10 to 20 years ago. The selectivity controls are different were you have shift and width instead of twin pass band tuning so when coming from an Icom you should switch gears in your head to adjust. The NR does have some audio artifacts but not as bad as the underwater sounds from the 3000 and I feel as time goes on maybe Yaesu engineers will address this in a firmware upgrade on the 10 and the 101.
I could not tell you on the 101D I have only sat in front of one once when it first came out but am told they have had many revisions since day one so buy new not used here unless its 3 months old but beware Yaesu doesn't honor the warranty if your buying a use radio from someone, there warranty is 3 years to original purchaser and non transferable, Icom's one year is.
The con of the Yaesu is the display its not as pretty as the Icom's, the spectrum speed has no real adjustments and real time so its kind of grassy but its larger than the 7300 plus has DVI out. The 3D display to me is a frigging joke but the spectrum display is usable, like I said the Icom is nicer but if your the type of ham who buys a radio because it has a nice GUI well enough said cause this radio's RX is top notch and to me the RX is much more important than the GUI.
BTW the one thing I like also about the new Ten for its price range it has similar controls like the 3000 had, IPO/Pre1/Pre2, three stage ATT 6/12/18db, APF which is IMO almost as good as the 7610's, adjustable AGC, a fine tune button also contour control for audio peaking or dipping, I also like the second tuning knob behind the main tuning knob which lets you QSY fast up the band. The radio is around the same size as the 590S I once had maybe a little higher but not as wide but larger than the 7300. Yes I like my new backup which I seem to use more on CW these days plus the relay is not a clack box like the 7300 was. I feel that Yaesu put this radio out not to compete directly with the 7300 but to give the hams a cut above with allot more radio performance for the dollar invested, the Icom was the first entry level knob style SDR the Yaesu IMO was the first Entry Level Competition Grade Superhet Hybrid SDR, they both have there place in the market today.
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N6YWU

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It would be interesting to post audio spectrum plots for each of these rigs (as set up with narrow band filters for weak CW signals), and see if the differences in audio quality that people are hearing show up graphically.  With the DSP or SDR capable rigs, there's a lot of different ways to shape the filtering and audio equalization.
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K6AER

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I find it curious that hams compare the 7300 to radios costing 2 to 5 times as much. Yes, the T/R relay clacks in full break-in mode but it is just a matter of time until someone offers a T/R break-in mod. With the market target for the 7300 being under $1000 every penny counts.

As Jame’s has pointed out, much of the high frequency noise can be reduced by limiting the IF band width and adjust the audio pass band in the receiver menu settings. The IF bandwidth is not fixed and you can adjust the bandwidth in the IF settings.

One item I never see listed in the specification on radios is the actual receiver audio amplifier distortion and audio output levels. You don’t even see this even on very high dollar radios. This may be a hard spec to produce for there is no direct input to the radio audio amplifier input. I have inserted audio into the audio on a IC-7800 and found that the 2 watt speaker audio output had a 10% distortion level.
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K0UA

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The mod us using "silly putty" or equivalent as outlined by Steve Ellington to make the relays a bit quieter on the 7300 for QSK operation does help. But does not completely do away with the racket of the relay clatter on QSK. The simple solution is to not operate QSK on the 7300 and that was my final analysis. The actual relay that makes the most noise it the one that keys an external amplifier and for a while I toyed with the idea of disconnecting it. Or of even putting a switch on the back to disable it or re-enable it at will. But in the long run it was just easier to go to the 7610 with its totally silent Mosfet switching for QSK CW operation as the best solution of all. And now with an amplifier that is NOT QSK rated, I don't even do that. Seems that semi-break in on the 7300 and the 7610 is just fine thank you. At least it is just fine for the type of CW operation I do. Since the problem was between my ears to start with, I have solved it easily by just not worrying about it any more.  Likewise if the 1000 dollar radio does not fulfill all of your wishes, there is quite simply many other much more expensive radios to choose from that will.  After all, the 7300 IS sold as an "entry level radio".  And it is one fine entry level radio.
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73  James K0UA

N2DTS

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A lot of sdr's seem to run the gain very high, have you tried turning the rf gain down, or on some sdr's its the AGC or AGCT control.

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K7JQ

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I guess everyone's ears on this thread are waaay more sensitive than mine ;). Or you're much more discriminating than I am.

I've operated CW for 61 years, mostly in crowded contests. To me, CW is CW...a tone that can be adjusted to your liking with the menu options and/or front panel controls. I've had a lot of higher end radios over the years, and the 7300 (to me) is as good or better than than the others. Put the filter at 250Hz, or even tighter, and any noise goes away and close-in stations are gone. I operate semi break-in and the relay clicks are barely discernible, as is the fan "noise" every time you transmit, especially when using headphones.

I gotta get me one of those FTDX-xxx radios to see what I've been missing. Or make an appointment with an ear doctor ;D.

73,  Bob K7JQ
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K0UA

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I guess everyone's ears on this thread are waaay more sensitive than mine ;). Or you're much more discriminating than I am.

I've operated CW for 61 years, mostly in crowded contests. To me, CW is CW...a tone that can be adjusted to your liking with the menu options and/or front panel controls. I've had a lot of higher end radios over the years, and the 7300 (to me) is as good or better than than the others. Put the filter at 250Hz, or even tighter, and any noise goes away and close-in stations are gone. I operate semi break-in and the relay clicks are barely discernible, as is the fan "noise" every time you transmit, especially when using headphones.

I gotta get me one of those FTDX-xxx radios to see what I've been missing. Or make an appointment with an ear doctor ;D.

73,  Bob K7JQ

Bob, is it possible that a lot of guys are trying to convince themselves they need the new $1700 radio over what they have? Maybe. :)  I have no doubt the new 1700 dollar radio will likely outperform the $1000 rig. It should. I will admit I don't like the clacking relays on the 7300 operated in full break in, so I don't do that. As far as the "hissy noises" and listener fatigue, I don't have a clue either what they are talkin about . But I don't have their ears either. Or their rig profiles set up either.  If someone would like my rig profile setup, I would be happy to send them the file over email. or they can download it from my cloud server for that matter if they want it. Just let me know and I will send you the link or send you the file which ever way you want to go.
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73  James K0UA

K7JQ

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James, looking at the title of this thread, why would anyone compare anything on radios that cost 1-3/4 times more (FTDX-10), or 3-1/2 times more (FTDX-101), with a radio like the 7300? Like you said, they better be better ;).

Both Yaesu's have more operating features, flexibility, and conveniences than the 7300. And Sherwood's numbers ;). That's why they cost a lot more money. If you're gonna compare any two items, at least keep them in the same class, quality, and price points. That's how the manufacturers determine MSRP...features per $.

My neighbor's Mercedes performs better than my Hyundai. Although they both get a person from point A to point B at the same speed limit in the same time ::).

Bob K7JQ
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N2DTS

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Some old simple and very inexpensive radios were known to have great audio and CW break in like the Ten Tec rigs and some qrp kits.

Distortion of the side tone, high frequency hash, intermod, can bother people with good hearing that listen, maybe in headphones, for hours.

Elecraft had complaints about the audio on their rigs and made changes to fix some of the issue.

I often read reviews where operators love or hate the audio of one radio or another.
Seems you can have a great radio with poor audio, or qsk, and a bad radio can have great audio and qsk.

It seems like a lot of musicians like CW, bad tones bother them...

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KX2T

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After being in the audio business for almost 25 year when I was younger I know my hearing loss is there but that high frequency hiss that comes from some rigs from either there audio stage  or way too much gain in there front end sometimes can be reduces with a treble control but at a loss of signal information in the signal. On the 7300 the RF gain can reduce some but even with no pre amp that radio is hot as far as sensitivity. The MDS of these Icom's is around -131dbm which  equates to what most radio's test out with there pre amp 1 stage turned on like a Flex or Yaesu. I am not saying that these radio's are deaf but without a pre amp they have less sensitivity so of course these radio's will have less his but were the rubber meets the road on these radio's is when you engage pre amp 1 and if done right they should not add to much noise but amplifies the signal, the Kenwood rigs are notorious for adding to much noise in there pre amp stages but it seems that Flex and Yaesu have done it right and now with the Anan on the streets they have seemed to do this right out of the box.
But if you compare the 7300 to a 7610 this is were these two rig are just world apart in there pre amp stages, the 7610 pre amp one and two are very low noise gain stages were the 7300 is much more simplified, again you get what you pay for.
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N2WQ

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As an avid contester, audio quality is of utmost importance to me. Below are my recommended CW settings for your ICOM 7300/7610. When going thru the steps below you end up with an incredibly quiet receiver, silky smooth yet narrow filters, and cleanER transmitter if you are in a multi-TX environment.

1) At all times, keep RF gain as low as possible for each band’s noise level. Go to a clear frequency and adjust RF gain to a setting where the band noise does not move the S-meter or only does it occasionally. You will also notice that the waterfall background is mostly black. Keep an eye on RF gain on all bands and at all times as there is no set it and forget it level. That said, I have noticed that more often than not, mine is at 10 o’clock.

2) Setup all your filters as a combination of a base BW + further narrowing them down with the PBT Shift knobs. My CW filters are 600, 400, and 200 Hz and created by setting BW to 800 Hz/500 Hz and then shifting PBT to get to the lower bandwidth. I can operate a full contest, without any hearing fatigue, with the 200 Hz filter set as above.

This is something I noticed as early as the 756 Pro III and results in silky smooth yet narrow filters that you can tolerate over a full contest. All filter shapes are set to SHARP.

3) Turn on NR and always keep it on. Set NR level to 2-4 based on your local environment. In my experience 2 is all you need, but I have not operated in a very noisy environment.

4) Turn on RX Tone Control for CW. Set the lower end of your BPF to the lower frequency shown for your widest CW filter and set the higher frequency of the BPF to the highest filter frequency. For example, let’s say that the widest CW filter is 600 Hz and your pitch is set to 600 Hz; your BPF should be set to 300 and 900 Hz.

5) On the lower bands, turn on IP+. On the higher bands, if you need to turn on the pre-amp, you have to disable IP+.

6) Turn on APF and set it to WIDE and 0 dB. Keep it on at all times. Not available on the 7300.

7) Enable DIGI SELECT and keep it on at all times. Not available on the 7300.

I also keep on my tuner enabled at all times as it acts as an additional RX filter circuit in front of the super sensitive receiver (unlike other radios, the tuner is inline on receive).

8 ) Adjust your TX DRIVE GAIN. Turn off your amp and set the radio to full power. While key down, observe the output power while reducing the DRIVE GAIN setting until the output power drops. In my case I need to set the level to 36 to get full power. Make sure you check all bands and set the level to a value that produces full power on all bands.

9) Maximize the use of your screen by switching to the much leaner bar graph meter and setting up the waterfall size to LARGE.

10) Set your waterfall band edges to something appropriate for a CW contest. For example, one for the entire CW segment and another one for the first, usually very crowded, 50 KHz of the band.

11) Last but not least, get yourself a SD card and save all of the above settings so you can quickly restore everything if you forget what you have changed and don’t like the change.

When you configure the radio as above, your first reaction may be that something is wrong as the radio will be virtually silent on a clear frequency. Don’t be tempted to crank up the audio to hear the band noise because as soon as you tune to a signal the audio will come to life. It’s quite amusing observing new ops to my station who’s first reaction is to think the radio is dead and start cranking up the audio.
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