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Author Topic: Head Phone "audio quality" between the FTdx-10/101d compared to the IC-7300  (Read 967 times)

W9AC

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...looking at the title of this thread, why would anyone compare anything on radios that cost 1-3/4 times more (FTDX-10), or 3-1/2 times more (FTDX-101), with a radio like the 7300? Like you said, they better be better...

Because oftentimes, it costs a manufacturer no more to offer better performance.  It's unforgivable for a manufacturer to release a product that's prone to high levels of hiss and distortion. 

When I see someone reply on this topic with "but you're comparing transceivers in different price classes," it tells me they know little about circuit theory.  If I can economically design my own low-noise, low-distortion headphone amplifiers, why can't the manufacturers? 

The classic case is the Yaesu FT-950.  The headphone amp has so much hiss when using studio-quality headphones that Yaesu pulled a slick trick: as the AF control is rotated near full CCW, the "click" of a relay can be heard.  The relay is used to disengage the headphone amp.  This give's the user the impression that the receiver is quiet when it's not.  So, Yaesu spent money in production on a relay when it didn't need to had they just used one of hundreds of low-noise, low-cost headphone amp chips.  These devices were plentiful at the time of the transceiver's design.

The same is true with the IC-7300's mechanical relays.  The videos you see of N4LQ's amplifier key line modification is my design.  It would cost Icom no more to replicate the keying scheme used in the IC-7610.  Only the gullible and uninformed believe that you always get what you pay for. 

Paul, W9AC
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N2DTS

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Poor audio amp chips/circuits used to be common.
A very good circuit would cost no more or so little as to not matter.
1 watt of audio output at 10% distortion used to be typical.
No excuse for that for the last 15 years!

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K7JQ

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...looking at the title of this thread, why would anyone compare anything on radios that cost 1-3/4 times more (FTDX-10), or 3-1/2 times more (FTDX-101), with a radio like the 7300? Like you said, they better be better...

Because oftentimes, it costs a manufacturer no more to offer better performance.  It's unforgivable for a manufacturer to release a product that's prone to high levels of hiss and distortion. 

When I see someone reply on this topic with "but you're comparing transceivers in different price classes," it tells me they know little about circuit theory.  If I can economically design my own low-noise, low-distortion headphone amplifiers, why can't the manufacturers? 

The same is true with the IC-7300's mechanical relays.  The videos you see of N4LQ's amplifier key line modification is my design.  It would cost Icom no more to replicate the keying scheme used in the IC-7610.  Only the gullible and uninformed believe that you always get what you pay for. 

Paul, W9AC

Paul,

Looking at your qrz.com page, I applaud your extreme electronics/technological knowledge. Far be it for me to question you in that regard. Compared to you, yes, I know little about circuit theory, not ever having a vocation in that field. The majority of hams don't have your professional acumen.

But now you're treading into my line of expertise..."Merchandising". Manufacturers have a profit motive, offering a line of step-up products with more advanced features, purposely designed to entice consumers to purchase more top-of-the-line offerings. Why on earth would Icom, besides a second receiver for $2,000 more, put the same performance, features, and specs in the 7300 that they do in the 7610? If you don't need a second receiver (and many really don't), they'd be cannibalizing their upper-tier product. Despite the fact that it doesn't cost them any more to put the same circuits in the 7300. You're looking at this from a cost/designer's perspective. Manufacturers look at it from a revenue and profit perspective. Two different animals.

It's up to the customer to decide what's important to them, and how they spend their money. Manufacturers only provide the products to give them a choice. You want quieter relays and fans?...buy the 7610. Less "hiss" in your headphones?...buy the 7610. The customer is happy, the manufacturer makes more money. That's the way of the world, my friend.

As far as "hiss and distortion" in the 7300, owning two of them I have no idea what they're talking about. In my 61 years as a ham, mostly an admitted "appliance operator" in DXing and contesting, the 7300's meet my needs, and exceed many of the other more expensive and feature-laden radios I've owned in the past. Others may disagree, and that's OK...I don't care.

Calling people "gullible and uninformed" isn't your decision. Let them buy what they want...it's their money ;).

Bob K7JQ
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K0UA

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...looking at the title of this thread, why would anyone compare anything on radios that cost 1-3/4 times more (FTDX-10), or 3-1/2 times more (FTDX-101), with a radio like the 7300? Like you said, they better be better...

Because oftentimes, it costs a manufacturer no more to offer better performance.  It's unforgivable for a manufacturer to release a product that's prone to high levels of hiss and distortion. 

When I see someone reply on this topic with "but you're comparing transceivers in different price classes," it tells me they know little about circuit theory.  If I can economically design my own low-noise, low-distortion headphone amplifiers, why can't the manufacturers? 

The same is true with the IC-7300's mechanical relays.  The videos you see of N4LQ's amplifier key line modification is my design.  It would cost Icom no more to replicate the keying scheme used in the IC-7610.  Only the gullible and uninformed believe that you always get what you pay for. 

Paul, W9AC

Paul,

Looking at your qrz.com page, I applaud your extreme electronics/technological knowledge. Far be it for me to question you in that regard. Compared to you, yes, I know little about circuit theory, not ever having a vocation in that field. The majority of hams don't have your professional acumen.

But now you're treading into my line of expertise..."Merchandising". Manufacturers have a profit motive, offering a line of step-up products with more advanced features, purposely designed to entice consumers to purchase more top-of-the-line offerings. Why on earth would Icom, besides a second receiver for $2,000 more, put the same performance, features, and specs in the 7300 that they do in the 7610? If you don't need a second receiver (and many really don't), they'd be cannibalizing their upper-tier product. Despite the fact that it doesn't cost them any more to put the same circuits in the 7300. You're looking at this from a cost/designer's perspective. Manufacturers look at it from a revenue and profit perspective. Two different animals.

It's up to the customer to decide what's important to them, and how they spend their money. Manufacturers only provide the products to give them a choice. You want quieter relays and fans?...buy the 7610. Less "hiss" in your headphones?...buy the 7610. The customer is happy, the manufacturer makes more money. That's the way of the world, my friend.

As far as "hiss and distortion" in the 7300, owning two of them I have no idea what they're talking about. In my 61 years as a ham, mostly an admitted "appliance operator" in DXing and contesting, the 7300's meet my needs, and exceed many of the other more expensive and feature-laden radios I've owned in the past. Others may disagree, and that's OK...I don't care.

Calling people "gullible and uninformed" isn't your decision. Let them buy what they want...it's their money ;).

Bob K7JQ

Bob, as usual you have a pretty good bead on how things work in the world of business .
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73  James K0UA

W9AC

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  • Posts: 373

...looking at the title of this thread, why would anyone compare anything on radios that cost 1-3/4 times more (FTDX-10), or 3-1/2 times more (FTDX-101), with a radio like the 7300? Like you said, they better be better...

Because oftentimes, it costs a manufacturer no more to offer better performance.  It's unforgivable for a manufacturer to release a product that's prone to high levels of hiss and distortion. 

When I see someone reply on this topic with "but you're comparing transceivers in different price classes," it tells me they know little about circuit theory.  If I can economically design my own low-noise, low-distortion headphone amplifiers, why can't the manufacturers? 

The same is true with the IC-7300's mechanical relays.  The videos you see of N4LQ's amplifier key line modification is my design.  It would cost Icom no more to replicate the keying scheme used in the IC-7610.  Only the gullible and uninformed believe that you always get what you pay for. 

Paul, W9AC

Paul,

Looking at your qrz.com page, I applaud your extreme electronics/technological knowledge. Far be it for me to question you in that regard. Compared to you, yes, I know little about circuit theory, not ever having a vocation in that field. The majority of hams don't have your professional acumen.

But now you're treading into my line of expertise..."Merchandising". Manufacturers have a profit motive, offering a line of step-up products with more advanced features, purposely designed to entice consumers to purchase more top-of-the-line offerings. Why on earth would Icom, besides a second receiver for $2,000 more, put the same performance, features, and specs in the 7300 that they do in the 7610? If you don't need a second receiver (and many really don't), they'd be cannibalizing their upper-tier product. Despite the fact that it doesn't cost them any more to put the same circuits in the 7300. You're looking at this from a cost/designer's perspective. Manufacturers look at it from a revenue and profit perspective. Two different animals.

It's up to the customer to decide what's important to them, and how they spend their money. Manufacturers only provide the products to give them a choice. You want quieter relays and fans?...buy the 7610. Less "hiss" in your headphones?...buy the 7610. The customer is happy, the manufacturer makes more money. That's the way of the world, my friend.

As far as "hiss and distortion" in the 7300, owning two of them I have no idea what they're talking about. In my 61 years as a ham, mostly an admitted "appliance operator" in DXing and contesting, the 7300's meet my needs, and exceed many of the other more expensive and feature-laden radios I've owned in the past. Others may disagree, and that's OK...I don't care.

Calling people "gullible and uninformed" isn't your decision. Let them buy what they want...it's their money ;).

Bob K7JQ

Bob, it's important to distinguish between merchandising and design neglect. I completely understand that manufacturers are loath to have less profitable products competing against others in their product lines.

The hiss and distortion matter should not be a feature enhancement of one product over another.  Indeed, the high-quality AF section in the IC-7300 is equal to that of the IC-7610.  OTOH, Icom spends more than necessary in production for the 7300's amp key line circuit.  While it's their prerogative, the parts count can be cut in half with an equal savings in production and an increase in reliability. 

For Yaesu and Icom, I would find it difficult to believe that they deliberately choose to use more expensive components in their transceivers to deliberately achieve lesser performance.  These are just a couple examples of design neglect that's not, nor should be a part of merchandising.

Paul, W9AC 
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N6YWU

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So how does the audio headset output quality on these 2 rigs compare with a good quality PC or MacBook Pro with SDR software?
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KX2T

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I think if you would lab test a 7300 and a 7610 at 1 watt audio output the 7610 would be below .5% THD and the 7300 would be above 1%, they do not use the same audio amp chip and the circuits differs plus they are not using the same ADC, FPGA's, DAC's plus the 7300 uses a common DSP chip to do all there selectivity functions but the 7610 its done before the DAC by a second FPGA. I just love that hams in  this forum thing that a 7610 is still two 7300, believe it or not they are way off base, they share NOTHING in the two designs except that they are both SDR radio's.
Icom has schematic on line plus some excellent technical papers on both radio's that cover allot of the makeup of these rigs besides the simpleton radio brochures.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 05:36:02 PM by KX2T »
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K7JQ

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I think if you would lab test a 7300 and a 7610 at 1 watt audio output the 7610 would be below .5% THD and the 7300 would be above 1%

A whole .5%+ difference in THD between two amateur radio communications radios. We're listening to CW tones and narrow bandwidth SSB audio at moderate volume levels. Real world, can the human ear really distinguish the difference? Does the difference between 1080P and 4K video really enhance your viewing experience? Will 8K be twice the wow of 4K? There's a point of diminishing returns where the human senses can't process anymore, and better "numbers" become meaningless.
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N2DTS

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Today, there is no reason for 1% distortion in audio amplifiers or high noise levels.
Many radios did and do generate a roar with the volume turned up and no antenna connected.

Many people complain about bad audio on some radios and I do not think they make it up.
Elecraft had a known problem, loads of distortion on the audio and they cleaned it up somewhat because people complained.
Some people (not me) still have high frequency hearing, and those that don't often hear distortion that others do not.

Not saying you have to put a hifi speaker in the radio, but the audio should be full and clean in the audio amp and you should be able to set it up t your taste, often its just software.

An expensive radio should be able to put hifi into the headphones and line out, with the ability to restrict the response to suit, its just software.
The 7300 (and 7610 I hear) has a hardware filter, (200 Hz high pass) in the RX for some reason.
To remove low frequency garbage from the DSP? To block pll tones?
The operator should be able to control that, its so simple in software. Costs nothing.
The odd thing is the TX audio goes down to 100 Hz...

Real SDR radios (that use a computer) can and do do that, you can set the response per mode to whatever you want.
The AUDIO response on CW can be limited to 300 to 900 Hz to eliminate hiss and rumble and hetrodynes.

And you can open it up to 20 to 10,000 Hz for broadcast, your choice.

 
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N2DTS

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Looking at the Sherwood list, the 7300 and 7610 are right next to each other, within the margin of error I would say, so I am unsure how much better the 7610 is over two 7300's...

Bigger screen and more ins and outs, yes, although two 7300's have more screen area over the 7610, but the 7610 has all the nice ins and outs...
It does not seem like the better chips and design paid off....
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W1VT

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A hardware audio HPF is typically an inexpensive way of reducing interference between circuitry inside a box. 
It is a lot easier when you only have analog circuitry--Rick Campbell's R1 and R2 receivers have very clean audio but no digital circuitry and its attendant noise to filter out.
My 6M phasing rig based on his T2 phasing design may be the nicest sounding rig I own.  Not just the audio, but how it sounds when I tune across the band with the analog VFO. 

My consumer grade computers have very good audio but the surplus industrial Optiplex computers I use do not.  I put a PCI soundcard in my ham shack computer to fix the bad audio. 
This reduces the chance of Windows system prompts getting into my digital transmissions by mistake.

Zak W1VT
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K0UA

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Looking at the Sherwood list, the 7300 and 7610 are right next to each other, within the margin of error I would say, so I am unsure how much better the 7610 is over two 7300's...

Bigger screen and more ins and outs, yes, although two 7300's have more screen area over the 7610, but the 7610 has all the nice ins and outs...
It does not seem like the better chips and design paid off....

Having owned both, and still do, I will assure you in some usages, notably CW operation there is considerable difference between a 7300 and an 7610.  And I will be the first to point out that if your focus is digital modes, there is absolutely no reason to buy a 7610 over a 7300.
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73  James K0UA
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