Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Lack Of US Product Support  (Read 1595 times)

K6BRN

  • Member
  • Posts: 2231
Re: Lack Of US Product Support
« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2021, 06:30:46 AM »

"The G90 is a full fledged SDR, the 718 isn't. As a result of that architecture difference, a properly functioning G90 will run rings around an Icom 718 on receive, especially in the receiver selectivity department. It also consumes much less current, which is important for the portable operator. Then there is the built-in antenna tuner. I don't think the 718 has one. But the G90 does, and from what people tell me, it'll darn near tune a wet noodle to resonance."

SDRs run the gamut from excellent (FlexRadio, ICOM) to junk (ahem...) and Yaesu has pretty much shown that at the current state of the art, hybrid analog/SDR radios can surpass both.

Cheap is cheap.  That means design, execution and build cost are absolutely minimized.  Makes no difference if the radio is analog, digital or a blend. 

But if it works for you - go with it.

Brian - K6BRN
Logged

KA4DPO

  • Member
  • Posts: 1591
Re: Lack Of US Product Support
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2021, 12:21:01 PM »

"The G90 is a full fledged SDR, the 718 isn't. As a result of that architecture difference, a properly functioning G90 will run rings around an Icom 718 on receive, especially in the receiver selectivity department. It also consumes much less current, which is important for the portable operator. Then there is the built-in antenna tuner. I don't think the 718 has one. But the G90 does, and from what people tell me, it'll darn near tune a wet noodle to resonance."

SDRs run the gamut from excellent (FlexRadio, ICOM) to junk (ahem...) and Yaesu has pretty much shown that at the current state of the art, hybrid analog/SDR radios can surpass both.

Cheap is cheap.  That means design, execution and build cost are absolutely minimized.  Makes no difference if the radio is analog, digital or a blend. 

But if it works for you - go with it.

Brian - K6BRN

You forgot to mention Kenwood.  The TS-890 architecture is nearly identical to the Yaesu FTdx 101D.  In fact, since Kenwood came out with it first, I have to wonder if Yaesu didn't buy a couple for their design team. ;)
Logged

K6BRN

  • Member
  • Posts: 2231
Re: Lack Of US Product Support
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2021, 04:49:11 AM »

Hi John:

I didn't forget Kenwood - and there are other good brands beyond Kenwood (Elecraft, etc.).  I just have no recent experience with them - Kenwood seems to have dropped in popularity since they rose to dominate the HF market with the TS-440 series, which was a long time ago. (I still have my TS-440SAT).

Not sure why, either.  Any thoughts regarding this?

Brian - K6BRN
Logged

N8AUC

  • Member
  • Posts: 1007
Re: Lack Of US Product Support
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2021, 02:45:22 PM »

So what's the current consumption on receive and 20W out transmit on the IC-718 vs the G90?

An Icom 718 draws on receive draws 1.3 amps on standby, and 2.0 amps at maximum audio volume.
The G90 draws 500mA on receive.

On transmit, the G90 draws 8 amps for 20W output. Not sure what the 718 would draw at that same output level.
Logged

KA4DPO

  • Member
  • Posts: 1591
Re: Lack Of US Product Support
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2021, 08:21:41 PM »

Hi John:

I didn't forget Kenwood - and there are other good brands beyond Kenwood (Elecraft, etc.).  I just have no recent experience with them - Kenwood seems to have dropped in popularity since they rose to dominate the HF market with the TS-440 series, which was a long time ago. (I still have my TS-440SAT).

Not sure why, either.  Any thoughts regarding this?

Brian - K6BRN

Well Kenwood have always been well built, reliable rigs, kind of the the Toyota of amateur radio.
If you ask me it's curb appeal, they don't have the bling factor that Icom and Yaesu have, even Elecraft has the K4.
Logged

N7EKU

  • Member
  • Posts: 1471
Re: Lack Of US Product Support
« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2021, 08:50:52 PM »

So what's the current consumption on receive and 20W out transmit on the IC-718 vs the G90?

An Icom 718 draws on receive draws 1.3 amps on standby, and 2.0 amps at maximum audio volume.
The G90 draws 500mA on receive.

On transmit, the G90 draws 8 amps for 20W output. Not sure what the 718 would draw at that same output level.

Thanks,

That's a good savings on receive for portable use.  However, otherwise higher receive current is not necessarily bad.  High performance receive amps require higher current draw so this could be the reason for the Icom's higher rate.

I don't necessarily say it's wrong, but just saying one rig will run rings around another without any testing specifications given doesn't mean much.  Just being newer and having SDR doesn't mean anything.  The IC-718 has pretty good receive specs.  How does the G90 compare in noise floor, IMD blocking range, freedom from birdies and other spurious responses, transmit quality, etc?

73.
Logged
Mark -- N7EKU/VE3

VE3WGO

  • Member
  • Posts: 666
Re: Lack Of US Product Support
« Reply #21 on: July 01, 2021, 02:55:42 PM »

Putting the Analog-Digital conversion function so close to the antenna input of the receiver allows the receiver designer to either optimize or cut all corners in the cost versus performance tradeoff even more than the traditional superhet designer ever could.

And so there have been, and will continue to be, well-designed and robust SDR receivers (expensive) along with corner-cutting SDR receivers (not expensive), just as there were good and bad Superhets.  The RTL dongle is an example of an all-out corner cutting (most inexpensive) SDR.  Sherwood shows us what the most optimized (and expensive) designs can achieve.  All other SDRs are somewhere in between those two examples.

Meanwhile Analog-Digital Converter sampling speed, sampling clock quality (stability, phase noise), noise floor, DSP noise reduction algorithms, and so on can make huge differences in performance.  That's on top of the traditional things like audio chain cleanliness, power supply noise immunity, front panel control and cabinet design and robustness, transmitter audio and RF signal quality, antenna tuner insertion losses in high SWR conditions (which they almost never admit to you), and instruction manual usefulness.

Product and warranty support probably adds 5-10% to the cost of of a radio, depending on how well the radio is designed in the first place (I base that estimate on what my employer's allowance for warranty repairs and support is).  The rest of the cost is determined by how many corners the designers chose (or were told) to cut.  There will be no such thing as a world-leading performance SDR from anywhere that is miraculously half of the cost of all the others, unless the manufacturer is dumping them into your market.  It would become very apparent after the new owner takes off their rose-colored glasses (or headphones). 

Product reviews that give 5 stars in spite of lack of product support, lack of a useable manual, lack of normal robustness controls and buttons, and/or lack of reasonable quality connectors, but because the price is low, they can throw it away after a year, just annoy me.

73, Ed
Logged

VE3WGO

  • Member
  • Posts: 666
Re: Lack Of US Product Support
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2021, 04:53:16 PM »

I have noticed that one manufacture of a cute 20-watt SDR HF radio, made in China, does not have any US service for their product. Repeated E-Mail inquiries goes unanswered. The price point has made the radio attractive but, in this world, you get what you pay for.

A friend of mine bought the Icom 705 and had the charge board burn up some critical components. Icom thought that maybe the owner had glitched the DC power input and the radio and this failure was not under warranty. After some consideration, Icom sent a new IC-705 to replace the defective unit. No charge to the owner.

Too often hams are focused on price point only and do not consider the after sales service and support. We all love a bargain but companies have to made a profit to stay in business. Should their business plan embrace that the product never fails, than you need to consider your long term lack of product support.

In the Telecoms busines, it is called "Total Cost of Ownership"  (TCO).   Your internet/phone/cable TV/wireless service provider(s) try to actually run a successful business and they have all learned that TOTAL cost of ownership is what really matters.  That means not only initial purchase cost, but also the costs of installing, operating, maintaining, replacing, returning for repairs, loss of service availability to their customers, and eventually disposing of the equipment all need to be taken into account. 

So if someone only looks at purchase price, then what they are saying to themself is that their time, effort, and inconvenience required to maintain or repair the equipment is worth little or nothing. 

(Either that, or else they are somehow super confident that the item they are buying will never need repair.)

73, Ed
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 04:55:40 PM by VE3WGO »
Logged

N4MU

  • Member
  • Posts: 344
Re: Lack Of US Product Support
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2021, 05:47:16 AM »

This thread brings to mind something that has made me try to understand for a long time now. I wonder how many supposed "problems" with radios (be they G90s or Flex or Icom, etc) are really caused by improper use and/or installation. It seems that we have a larger percentage of well meaning new licensees who had all the correct answers but really have no clue as to how to use/operate that shiny new radio whether it's a $25 HT or a $440 Xiegu. No clue. And perhaps more importantly, no desire to learn themselves but to rather complain about poor manufacturing and "bad" equipment. Okay, I'm done ranting...for now. Oh, by the way, I have owned a G90 for several months, use it portable and never a glitch. Nice radio if used correctly but I guess very easy to damage it not used right. Also, TX at full power draws only about 5 amps...actually a bit less. If yours is drawing 8 amps you might have an issue. Caveat emptor es 73.
Logged

N8YX

  • Member
  • Posts: 2449
Re: Lack Of US Product Support
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2021, 02:40:41 PM »

Unless you absolutely need the latest and not always the best consider going back 40 years and get a Kenwood TS-830.
For fixed-station use, maybe. I have a couple '830s and related accessories in the shack inventory - and while they're good performers, I can think of a few from the '830 era that are simply better. One of which is in my 10-12M operating position at the moment.

For constrained mobile, portable or backpacking use you're simply not going to beat an IC-703/705, G90, QR-20 or FT817/818.
Logged

KM1H

  • Member
  • Posts: 11155
Re: Lack Of US Product Support
« Reply #25 on: October 05, 2021, 04:41:44 PM »

Not radio related but Ive bought many vintage US made lawn tractors, compressor, generator, water pump and other small engine parts directly from China and have been completely satisfied.

Installing a brand new carb, starter, starter Bendix drive, fuel pump, pulley/bearing, mower deck blade mandrels, flywheel ring gear, and more have kept these almost ~1980-95 antiques running on a regular basis. The carbs all were pre aligned or needed a 1/4 turn tweak to run perfect, typically $12-18 and low shipping cost!!

Initial cost for the lawn tractors has been a big ZERO as owners appear to be afraid to tackle them and just leave at the curb or at the transfer station for someone to take. I keep 3 in use (mow, haul trees/branches to the burn piles out back that are never burned, and one hauls a tow behind cart for tools and things I need to work around 5 acres plus towers and antennas) and sell off others I get running well.

US parts suppliers are mostly NLA or ridiculously priced.

Carl
Logged

K6BRN

  • Member
  • Posts: 2231
Re: Lack Of US Product Support
« Reply #26 on: October 07, 2021, 12:43:25 AM »

Hi Carl:

Hmmm.  Well. 

In a similarly diagonal direction, I discovered a 110-year old Griswold #8 cast iron skillet (and a small #3) at my lake house this summer (it's also very old), covered in grime and dust.  After baking it out at 650F (in my Weber barbeque) for an hour to clear the muck off of it (it looked like new!), I re-seasoned it and cooked up a storm.  It's at least 1/3 lighter than a modern Lodge skillet (also made in the USA).  Handles like a dream - naturally non-stick - eggs just slide off of it.

So, having rediscovered cooking with iron, I purchased a bunch of Field skillets and covers (also made in the USA - recently) and am continuing to have fun on the West Coast.

Moral of the story:  There is nothing like USA iron!

Hmmmm.  Do we have a cooking thread?  I'll have to look.

Pirogies and onions, anyone?

Cheers!

Brian - K6BRN

Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up