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Author Topic: ARRL drops the ball??  (Read 4374 times)

KU2US

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #135 on: May 30, 2022, 08:51:49 AM »

I think the ARRL was trying at least! I once lived in a HOA. The first thing, when I read the restrictions was regarding flag poles! I asked if I could erect a flag pole in the back yard! There was nothing in the rules about this! They asked how tall? I told them 30-40 feet. They said seeing it was in the back yard I could do it, but I could only fly the American flag and nothing else. I agreed. I made an HF vertical with buried coax and radials. One of the board members saw me bury some radials and asked me what that was? I told him they were for ground protection in case of a lightning strike to the pole! Guess what? Hook, line and sinker! Up went my flag :)
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K1VSK

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #136 on: May 30, 2022, 10:32:06 AM »

I think the ARRL was trying at least! I once lived in a HOA. The first thing, when I read the restrictions was regarding flag poles! I asked if I could erect a flag pole in the back yard! There was nothing in the rules about this! They asked how tall? I told them 30-40 feet. They said seeing it was in the back yard I could do it, but I could only fly the American flag and nothing else. I agreed. I made an HF vertical with buried coax and radials. One of the board members saw me bury some radials and asked me what that was? I told him they were for ground protection in case of a lightning strike to the pole! Guess what? Hook, line and sinker! Up went my flag :)

To be clear, are you suggesting people lie about compliance with contract terms to which they agree?
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KU2US

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #137 on: May 30, 2022, 11:25:03 AM »

There were no provisions or forbiddance of antenna's or flag poles in the contract. It was an open subject. I didn't want to tell them the flag pole was also an antenna, or it would start problems which would be only opinions and objections would not be based on legality. The flag pole was very concealed as far a recognizing it was an antenna. There were no contract terms that anybody agreed to! I decided to not inform anybody it was a dual purpose flag pole even though it was legal-out of sight, out of mind. In contractual law, nothing is implied unless written.
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K1VSK

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #138 on: May 30, 2022, 11:35:34 AM »

There were no provisions or forbiddance of antenna's or flag poles in the contract. It was an open subject. I didn't want to tell them the flag pole was also an antenna, or it would start problems which would be only opinions and objections would not be based on legality. The flag pole was very concealed as far a recognizing it was an antenna. There were no contract terms that anybody agreed to! I decided to not inform anybody it was a dual purpose flag pole even though it was legal-out of sight, out of mind. In contractual law, nothing is implied unless written.
Therein lies the ‘rest of the story’.
Felt compelled to ask to do something for which there is no contractual or any other limitation?

I can understand being a good neighbor and asking abutters but you apparently asked only the HOA for something they don’t restrict.
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #139 on: May 30, 2022, 12:22:08 PM »


There were no provisions or forbiddance of antenna's or flag poles in the contract. It was an open subject.


With nothing in the CC&R's specifically regarding antennas or flagpoles, one would think that there's open season on what you could do with either, without permission from the HOA.

But I'm sure there's another provision dealing with "Additions, construction, aesthetic improvements, etc to the house or property". Which would require plans submitted to the Architectural Committee for approval. Erecting a tower, vertical, or flagpole would fall under this provision, and if not first approved by them, they could make you remove it. Displaying the American flag is allowed by Federal law, but HOA's have the right to restrict how and where it is allowed to be displayed.


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W1VT

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #140 on: May 30, 2022, 01:07:26 PM »

States can pass laws that invalidate CC&Rs. 

Florida, Arizona, and Idaho have passed flag laws that specifically target overzealous HOAs.
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #141 on: May 30, 2022, 02:15:04 PM »


States can pass laws that invalidate CC&Rs. 


But not ham radio antenna CC&R prohibitions. Even PRB-1 can't touch them.
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AC2EU

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #142 on: May 30, 2022, 03:45:09 PM »


States can pass laws that invalidate CC&Rs. 


But not ham radio antenna CC&R prohibitions. Even PRB-1 can't touch them.


It's all a dead end that ARRL should not spend any more time, effort, or money on.
( which is what this thread started being about)

K4GTE

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #143 on: May 30, 2022, 03:45:43 PM »

Smart move by the ARRL. They'd be wide open for lawsuits from all directions. If you are in an HOA, you signed a contract agreeing to abide by their rules and restrictions. It sucks, but that's the way it is.
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #144 on: May 30, 2022, 04:16:21 PM »


Smart move by the ARRL. They'd be wide open for lawsuits from all directions.


Lawsuits from who?? And for what?? The ARRL was just lobbying congress to pass Federal legislation banning CC&R's from prohibiting ham radio antenna restrictions in HOA communities. Just like the Federal OTARD rule did for TV satellite dishes and over-the-air receiving antennas. No law against trying.
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K4GTE

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #145 on: May 30, 2022, 04:58:05 PM »


Smart move by the ARRL. They'd be wide open for lawsuits from all directions.


Lawsuits from who?? And for what?? The ARRL was just lobbying congress to pass Federal legislation banning CC&R's from prohibiting ham radio antenna restrictions in HOA communities. Just like the Federal OTARD rule did for TV satellite dishes and over-the-air receiving antennas. No law
against trying.

Lawsuits from the HOA's. Lawsuits from operators who followed the ARRL's guidance and lost.
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N5PZJ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #146 on: May 30, 2022, 05:13:53 PM »


Smart move by the ARRL. They'd be wide open for lawsuits from all directions.


Lawsuits from who?? And for what?? The ARRL was just lobbying congress to pass Federal legislation banning CC&R's from prohibiting ham radio antenna restrictions in HOA communities. Just like the Federal OTARD rule did for TV satellite dishes and over-the-air receiving antennas. No law
against trying.

Lawsuits from the HOA's. Lawsuits from operators who followed the ARRL's guidance and lost.

Lawsuits against  a lobbying organization would qualify for a SLAPP action.     Suing for bad advice when no expectation if it would work, ARRL is not your Lawyer, YMMV.   
It's pointless to expect the ARRL to get involved in the HOA issue. The time to strike was decades ago.
The ARRL knows the battle is lost, and taking advantage of smaller electronics, they can steer the narrative of the hobby away from the traditional home QTH.
Don't take my word for it. The proof is in QST. Years ago it was about building your home station, now it's all POTA, SOTA and "get outside". Articles about portable antennas etc. There are now more ads of the same.

It all started when Gertrude did not like the ugly tower outside her window, the ARRL did not act accordingly at that time. HOAs are well aware of the hidden and attic antennas so now there HOA rules specifically prohibiting any radiating of RF. It went from appearance to specifically making sure there is no amateur operation in subdivisions.

For an organization, which is supposed to be an advocate, they failed at this one. Understanding this impacts their membership and revenue, they have adjusted with the times.


You can limit Visible Antennas (NOT OTARD) but hidden stuff in Louisiana is ultra vires, on the subject of RF, Louisiana doesn't a Communications Commission, sorry Karen, 
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W1VT

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #147 on: May 30, 2022, 05:40:05 PM »

I think Hawaii has come closet to getting the state to help hams with HOAs.  They passed a bill and it died on the Governor's desk.
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WO7R

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #148 on: May 30, 2022, 09:50:21 PM »

Quote
but hidden stuff in Louisiana is ultra vires,

This is a good point, though it may require a good local lawyer.

A friend of mine has had a lot of success putting up external antennas in his HOA.  He doesn't have a 70 foot tower or anything, but he does have a good lawyer -- and, several antennas.

In Arizona, at least, it appears that any regulation that does not plausibly have to do with protecting property values is "ultra vires" -- beyond their legal power.  They can put "no indoor antennas" in their regulations if they like, but legally, (if I go by my friend, IANAL etc) it is just a bluff.  They don't like to pay legal fees, either, especially futile ones.
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WW5F

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #149 on: May 31, 2022, 03:55:18 AM »

Not all people have to follow all the rules.

Some rules are intended for only some people.

And we have a class of people today who just change the rules ex post facto when there's an "above the fold" PR outbreak on them.

If you can get away with it today, that validates it must be ok.

Welcome to the here and now--this is progress!
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