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Author Topic: ARRL drops the ball??  (Read 4374 times)

W9AC

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #150 on: May 31, 2022, 06:04:20 AM »


States can pass laws that invalidate CC&Rs. 


But not ham radio antenna CC&R prohibitions. Even PRB-1 can't touch them.

Not correct.  CC&Rs are adjudicated under state law, typically governed by state statute.  As such, a state's legislature can invalidate them, or a portion thereof, if it so chooses. 

In Florida, restrictive property covenants are governed under Florida State Statute 720.  That chapter was created by the state legislature.  With few exceptions, the legislature can take back what it gives, including invalidating part or all of a restrictive covenant. 

Paul, W9AC
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #151 on: May 31, 2022, 06:10:27 AM »

Lots of lawyers (or pseudo-lawyers) commenting here, with fancy terms…ultra vires; ex post facto; SLAPP action. I looked ‘em up…you learn something every day ;).

But I don’t know if anyone could dispute the fact that CC&R’s are legally binding agreements when you purchase a property. If you choose to violate them, you do so at your own risk, and are subject to the remedies as stipulated in the agreement. Am I wrong? Are there loopholes around them? Inquiring minds want to know ;).
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W1MOW

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #152 on: May 31, 2022, 07:27:16 AM »

Lots of lawyers (or pseudo-lawyers) commenting here, with fancy terms…ultra vires; ex post facto; SLAPP action. I looked ‘em up…you learn something every day ;).

But I don’t know if anyone could dispute the fact that CC&R’s are legally binding agreements when you purchase a property. If you choose to violate them, you do so at your own risk, and are subject to the remedies as stipulated in the agreement. Am I wrong? Are there loopholes around them? Inquiring minds want to know ;).

My wife, who ia an attorney, has a couple of favorite sayings:

"You can sue anyone for anything" (One of the problems with today's society.)

"Laws and contracts are written by a Human. (It used to be "man", but today...)No human is perfect. If you hire a smart lawyer, and spend enough money, chances are you may find a loophole, no matter how tiny or ridiculous "

Gary W1MOW
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The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt - Bertram Russell (1935)

So not much has changed in almost 90 years!

WB2KSP

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  • Posts: 828
Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #153 on: May 31, 2022, 07:41:50 AM »

Lots of lawyers (or pseudo-lawyers) commenting here, with fancy terms…ultra vires; ex post facto; SLAPP action. I looked ‘em up…you learn something every day ;).

But I don’t know if anyone could dispute the fact that CC&R’s are legally binding agreements when you purchase a property. If you choose to violate them, you do so at your own risk, and are subject to the remedies as stipulated in the agreement. Am I wrong? Are there loopholes around them? Inquiring minds want to know ;).

Like any other contract, it's open to negotiation. To draw a parallel, workers form unions to give them a better chance to negotiate terms of a contractual agreement. In other words, strength in numbers. There's nothing wrong with having a representative body do the negotiating for you. The reason hams want to live in HOA communities is really quite simple. Most new neighborhoods being built are HOA controlled. I did not say custom homes being built on open land, I am saying that if you want a home built within the past 10 years there's very little chance of finding that home in a neighborhood without an HOA. It can be written that the homeowner freely sings a contract, blah blah blah. For most armatures operators ham radio is a hobby, representing part of their total home owning needs. If one needs to relocate homes for any number of reasons, ham radio is only part of the equation. I am fortunate enough to live in an area where HOA's really don't exist. Sadly, the opportunities to find similar neighborhoods in populated areas are dwindling. Of course one could always move to an older home in a down neighborhood but that to me is not a viable option.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 07:54:42 AM by WB2KSP »
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W9AC

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  • Posts: 373
Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #154 on: May 31, 2022, 07:56:50 AM »

"Laws and contracts are written by a Human. (It used to be "man", but today...)No human is perfect. If you hire a smart lawyer, and spend enough money, chances are you may find a loophole, no matter how tiny or ridiculous "

Gary W1MOW

In my line of work, it happens with flawed charging documents.  I take advantage of those inaccuracies in court and it often results in a client paying less money to defend their case.

Paul, W9AC 

 
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K7LZR

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #155 on: May 31, 2022, 08:36:37 AM »

IMO, The main two reasons for CC&R antenna restrictions/prohibitions and HOA enforcement are 1. aesthetics, and 2. safety. Nobody wants to look out their window and see wires or vertical/horizontal poles in their neighbor's backyard, and nobody wants said antennas to fall over into their backyard, causing damage or injury. They could give a rat's a** about RFI or radiation. That's too technical for the average homeowner.

Based on past attempts and failures, no matter what the ARRL proposes, I doubt if we're ever gonna see federal legislation to override CC&R's and accommodate amateur radio antennas.

It's either go stealth, or don't move into such a community if antennas are a priority.

Bob K7JQ

Exactly.
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W9IQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #156 on: May 31, 2022, 08:48:07 AM »

But I don’t know if anyone could dispute the fact that CC&R’s are legally binding agreements when you purchase a property. If you choose to violate them, you do so at your own risk, and are subject to the remedies as stipulated in the agreement. Am I wrong? Are there loopholes around them? Inquiring minds want to know ;).

The list of "loopholes" is nearly endless. Most issues do not arise from the CC&R per se but from promulgation by the HOA or similar body. A small sampling of how an HOA rule can be struck down or limited through adjudication:

  • Local, State or Federal preemption, denial, restriction or allowance
  • Procedural deficiencies such as failure to notice a meeting, improper elections, failure to publish, etc.
  • Unreasonableness or no useful purpose
  • Discriminatory or targeting in purpose or realization
  • Overreach of authority or purpose
  • Selective enforcement of the rule

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K1VSK

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  • Posts: 1949
Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #157 on: May 31, 2022, 08:59:59 AM »

But I don’t know if anyone could dispute the fact that CC&R’s are legally binding agreements when you purchase a property. If you choose to violate them, you do so at your own risk, and are subject to the remedies as stipulated in the agreement. Am I wrong? Are there loopholes around them? Inquiring minds want to know ;).

The list of "loopholes" is nearly endless. Most issues do not arise from the CC&R per se but from promulgation by the HOA or similar body. A small sampling of how an HOA rule can be struck down or limited through adjudication:

  • Local, State or Federal preemption, denial, restriction or allowance
  • Procedural deficiencies such as failure to notice a meeting, improper elections, failure to publish, etc.
  • Unreasonableness or no useful purpose
  • Discriminatory or targeting in purpose or realization
  • Overreach of authority or purpose
  • Selective enforcement of the rule

- Glenn W9IQ

None of which are “loopholes” but rather conditions stipulated by statute which establishes authority for HOAs to manage and oversee compliance with CC&Rs. Your list is actually all process related. Most successful challenges deliver solely from process violations, e.g. the HOA didn’t follow their own rules. 

None of which is applicable to the subject matter but makes for a good opportunity for someone to vent about issues which don’t affect them.
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N2EY

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  • Posts: 5698
Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #158 on: May 31, 2022, 09:38:20 AM »


States can pass laws that invalidate CC&Rs. 


But not ham radio antenna CC&R prohibitions. Even PRB-1 can't touch them.

Not correct.  CC&Rs are adjudicated under state law, typically governed by state statute.  As such, a state's legislature can invalidate them, or a portion thereof, if it so chooses. 

In Florida, restrictive property covenants are governed under Florida State Statute 720.  That chapter was created by the state legislature.  With few exceptions, the legislature can take back what it gives, including invalidating part or all of a restrictive covenant. 

Paul, W9AC

W9AC - perhaps you know the answer to this:

1) I recall cases where a resident (usually an elderly military veteran) in an HOA community put up a flagpole to fly the US flag, and was told it violated the HOA rules. A legal battle ensued, and the legislature passed a "Right To Fly" law that invalidated the no-ground-mounted-flagpoles HOA rules. True?

2) I recall cases where residents in HOA communities wanted to use clotheslines for their clothes but there were rules against it. Running a clothes dryer uses a LOT of energy, and the result is a "Right To Dry" movement to pass laws ensuring it. True?

3) With the growing number of EVs and home solar installations, will there be battles between residents wanting to have charging stations and/or solar panels and HOAs saying no?

73 de Jim, N2EY
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N2EY

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #159 on: May 31, 2022, 09:46:41 AM »

A lady built a house here just across the railroad tracks that have been here since at least before the Civil War and tried to seek legal action to get the trains to stop blowing the horn at the crossing.

At her age, you would think she wouldn't even hear the train whistle.

"Remember this
If you'd be spared
Trains don't whistle
Because they're scared.

Burma Shave
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N2EY

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  • Posts: 5698
Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #160 on: May 31, 2022, 09:48:00 AM »

K1VSK gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big HOA.

BRILLIANT!!!

Too few will get the reference, though.
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K7JQ

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  • Posts: 2602
Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #161 on: May 31, 2022, 10:14:10 AM »

But I don’t know if anyone could dispute the fact that CC&R’s are legally binding agreements when you purchase a property. If you choose to violate them, you do so at your own risk, and are subject to the remedies as stipulated in the agreement. Am I wrong? Are there loopholes around them? Inquiring minds want to know ;).

The list of "loopholes" is nearly endless. Most issues do not arise from the CC&R per se but from promulgation by the HOA or similar body. A small sampling of how an HOA rule can be struck down or limited through adjudication:

  • Local, State or Federal preemption, denial, restriction or allowance
  • Procedural deficiencies such as failure to notice a meeting, improper elections, failure to publish, etc.
  • Unreasonableness or no useful purpose
  • Discriminatory or targeting in purpose or realization
  • Overreach of authority or purpose
  • Selective enforcement of the rule

- Glenn W9IQ

None of which are “loopholes” but rather conditions stipulated by statute which establishes authority for HOAs to manage and oversee compliance with CC&Rs. Your list is actually all process related. Most successful challenges deliver solely from process violations, e.g. the HOA didn’t follow their own rules. 


I agree with Don K1VSK. I was referring to *established* CC&R's, that you signed onto upon purchase of the property. They're not in violation of any Federal, State, or Local laws, and the HOA is not in violation of any of the other five points that Glenn posted. IOW, the HOA is doing everything correct in equal enforcement to all members of the community. No "negotiations" with the HOA possible. They strictly prohibit ham radio antennas, end of discussion.

In the event of a case going to court, can an attorney find a *legal loophole* that could overturn that particular CC&R, and allow you to erect a ham radio antenna?
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N2SR

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #162 on: May 31, 2022, 10:17:32 AM »


W9AC - perhaps you know the answer to this:

1) I recall cases where a resident (usually an elderly military veteran) in an HOA community put up a flagpole to fly the US flag, and was told it violated the HOA rules. A legal battle ensued, and the legislature passed a "Right To Fly" law that invalidated the no-ground-mounted-flagpoles HOA rules. True?

2) I recall cases where residents in HOA communities wanted to use clotheslines for their clothes but there were rules against it. Running a clothes dryer uses a LOT of energy, and the result is a "Right To Dry" movement to pass laws ensuring it. True?

3) With the growing number of EVs and home solar installations, will there be battles between residents wanting to have charging stations and/or solar panels and HOAs saying no?

73 de Jim, N2EY

4) I recall several cases where a HOA homeowner had to choose between watering their lawn because the HOA required it, or following the county and/or state drought restrictions (supposedly superseding the HOA rule) of not watering your lawn, washing your car, etc, and risk getting fined. 

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Elect a clown.  Expect a circus.

K1VSK

  • Member
  • Posts: 1949
Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #163 on: May 31, 2022, 11:03:05 AM »

K1VSK gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big HOA.

BRILLIANT!!!

Too few will get the reference, though.

If you like that, you should relate to this easily:


“Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.”
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K1VSK

  • Member
  • Posts: 1949
Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #164 on: May 31, 2022, 11:09:10 AM »


W9AC - perhaps you know the answer to this:

1) I recall cases where a resident (usually an elderly military veteran) in an HOA community put up a flagpole to fly the US flag, and was told it violated the HOA rules. A legal battle ensued, and the legislature passed a "Right To Fly" law that invalidated the no-ground-mounted-flagpoles HOA rules. True?

2) I recall cases where residents in HOA communities wanted to use clotheslines for their clothes but there were rules against it. Running a clothes dryer uses a LOT of energy, and the result is a "Right To Dry" movement to pass laws ensuring it. True?

3) With the growing number of EVs and home solar installations, will there be battles between residents wanting to have charging stations and/or solar panels and HOAs saying no?

73 de Jim, N2EY

4) I recall several cases where a HOA homeowner had to choose between watering their lawn because the HOA required it, or following the county and/or state drought restrictions (supposedly superseding the HOA rule) of not watering your lawn, washing your car, etc, and risk getting fined.

That’s actually a good example of showing flexibility - In the case I am familiar with, the HOA agreed to temporarily suspend watering requirements because of the drought. It happens frequently in California and more infrequently here. HOAs often modify rules for various reasons.

Interestingly, the only thing they cannot change is a closed mind.
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