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Author Topic: ARRL drops the ball??  (Read 4374 times)

W9AC

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #165 on: May 31, 2022, 11:11:55 AM »


1) I recall cases where a resident (usually an elderly military veteran) in an HOA community put up a flagpole to fly the US flag, and was told it violated the HOA rules. A legal battle ensued, and the legislature passed a "Right To Fly" law that invalidated the no-ground-mounted-flagpoles HOA rules. True?

First, see the Freedom to Display the American Flag Act of 2005.  That pertains to federal protections.

Florida has its own statute: FS 720.304:

"...(2)(a) Any homeowner may display one portable, removable United States flag or official flag of the State of Florida in a respectful manner, and one portable, removable official flag, in a respectful manner, not larger than 4 1/2 feet by 6 feet, which represents the United States Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, or Coast Guard, or a POW-MIA flag, regardless of any covenants, restrictions, bylaws, rules, or requirements of the association.

(b) Any homeowner may erect a freestanding flagpole no more than 20 feet high on any portion of the homeowner’s real property, regardless of any covenants, restrictions, bylaws, rules, or requirements of the association, if the flagpole does not obstruct sightlines at intersections and is not erected within or upon an easement. The homeowner may further display in a respectful manner from that flagpole, regardless of any covenants, restrictions, bylaws, rules, or requirements of the association, one official United States flag, not larger than 4 1/2 feet by 6 feet, and may additionally display one official flag of the State of Florida or the United States Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, or Coast Guard, or a POW-MIA flag. Such additional flag must be equal in size to or smaller than the United States flag. The flagpole and display are subject to all building codes, zoning setbacks, and other applicable governmental regulations, including, but not limited to, noise and lighting ordinances in the county or municipality in which the flagpole is erected and all setback and locational criteria contained in the governing documents..."


Looking at the legislative history, the statute has been amended several times, beginning in 2003.  In Florida, it's silly for an HOA to tamper with the interpretation and legislative meaning of the statute -- to the point where I would consider a damages claim to recover legal defense fees against my own HOA if they pursued it, even with sovereign immunity and personal indemnification clauses.  An HOA should know the statute and/or be guided by legal counsel who should know the statute. It may, or may not hold but the HOA would think long and hard about pursuing a future action that could be protected by law.

Jim, as to the other instances you mentioned, I have not followed those cases closely enough to comment. 

Paul, W9AC
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N2SR

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #166 on: May 31, 2022, 12:00:40 PM »


That’s actually a good example of showing flexibility - In the case I am familiar with, the HOA agreed to temporarily suspend watering requirements because of the drought. It happens frequently in California and more infrequently here. HOAs often modify rules for various reasons.

Interestingly, the only thing they cannot change is a closed mind.

In the cases that I am familiar with, the homeowner was heavily fined and only after the homeowner sued the HOA and won, were the fines dismissed. 

Interestingly, it took legal action by the homeowner for the HOA realize that common sense should prevail and the HOA rules were revised to where the county and/or state's rules prevailed over the HOA's rules. 
 
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #167 on: May 31, 2022, 12:58:47 PM »

We've now shown all the ways that various governmental laws can invalidate and override CC&R's due to patriotism (displaying flags), and environmental concerns (electrical energy savings with clotheslines and solar panels,  prohibiting watering lawns in a drought)...issues that can be catastrophic to the safety and welfare of the population as a whole. Getting a little off the subject.

In keeping with the topic in a ham radio forum, what legal argument can be proposed to invalidate/override CC&R ham radio antenna prohibitions? The EMCOMM angle has been shot down repeatedly.



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W9IQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #168 on: May 31, 2022, 01:10:05 PM »

We've now shown all the ways that various governmental laws can invalidate and override CC&R's due to patriotism (displaying flags), and environmental concerns (electrical energy savings with clotheslines and solar panels,  prohibiting watering lawns in a drought)...issues that can be catastrophic to the safety and welfare of the population as a whole. Getting a little off the subject.

In keeping with the topic in a ham radio forum, what legal argument can be proposed to invalidate/override CC&R ham radio antenna prohibitions? The EMCOMM angle has been shot down repeatedly.

What is the specific wording regarding the prohibition of amateur radio antennas?

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KE8G

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #169 on: May 31, 2022, 01:56:47 PM »



Why do you post stupid replies that have nothing to do with the subject at hand

HOA's were created to keep undesirables out of the neighborhood. How is that stupid or off topic?

Keep out undesirables... that's a laugh!!

We have a pretty good HOA here, but there's no way they can keep out undesirables.  We have about 1,100 houses in this development and a lot of them are rental properties.  Take for instance the neighbor (and I use that term loosely) whose house and property look like a war was fought in it.  He has more junk (cars and other crap) in the drive, front yard and back yard, and in the garage, that it looks like a scrap yard opened for business.  All the HOA can do is send letters to the property owner, but that's it, it's then up to the property owner to make things right.  Obviously, in my case, the neighboring property owner is only concerned about one thing... his rent being paid on a timely basis.

73 de Jim - KE8G
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #170 on: May 31, 2022, 02:35:02 PM »

We've now shown all the ways that various governmental laws can invalidate and override CC&R's due to patriotism (displaying flags), and environmental concerns (electrical energy savings with clotheslines and solar panels,  prohibiting watering lawns in a drought)...issues that can be catastrophic to the safety and welfare of the population as a whole. Getting a little off the subject.

In keeping with the topic in a ham radio forum, what legal argument can be proposed to invalidate/override CC&R ham radio antenna prohibitions? The EMCOMM angle has been shot down repeatedly.

What is the specific wording regarding the prohibition of amateur radio antennas?

- Glenn W9IQ

Hi Glenn,

A specific statement like "Radio transmitting and/or receiving antennas are prohibited". Or even specifying "amateur radio antennas". Some might add "...unless approved by the Architectural Committee"...a possible crack in the armor. Assuming no "loopholes"/conditions that you previously posted apply, and denied approval by the Architectural Committee, what else can legally be proposed to allow an antenna?

The  other CC&R remedies/overrides posted here are all well and good, but have nothing to do specifically with radio antennas. They're just skirting the issue...governmental  CC&R overrides based on environmental, health, safety, and welfare concerns of the general population. I don't see where ham radio antennas would apply for such overrides.

73,  Bob K7JQ

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W9IQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #171 on: May 31, 2022, 03:29:07 PM »

Obviously there is no Federal "override" of ham radio antenna restrictions by an HOA - PRB-1 stopped short and the ARRL effort failed. You are left to negotiate with or persuade the HOA to reach a compromise or you will need to pursue legal action if you don't wish to pursue stealth with its associated risk.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #172 on: May 31, 2022, 04:15:47 PM »

Obviously there is no Federal "override" of ham radio antenna restrictions by an HOA - PRB-1 stopped short and the ARRL effort failed. You are left to negotiate with or persuade the HOA to reach a compromise or you will need to pursue legal action if you don't wish to pursue stealth with its associated risk.

- Glenn W9IQ

Nor State or local overrides. With no legal "loopholes"or other HOA conditions evident (they perform their enforcement requirements by the book), everything short of negotiating has failed. And if negotiation (if even possible) with the HOA also fails, what's the sense of pursuing legal action? It's basically an exercise in futility and a gross waste of money. The HOA holds all the cards with a full set of legal remedies.

So all the previous posts on circumventing other CC&R issues are moot when it comes to specifically dealing with a blanket CC&R prohibition of ham radio antennas. You're choices are not operating, going with stealth antennas, mobile, portable, or remote via internet. Or move.
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W9IQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #173 on: May 31, 2022, 04:28:18 PM »

So all the previous posts on circumventing other CC&R issues are moot when it comes to specifically dealing with a blanket CC&R prohibition of ham radio antennas. You're choices are not operating, going with stealth antennas, mobile, portable, or remote via internet. Or move.

Even if you don't see it as viable, others may choose to negotiate or litigate.

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: May 31, 2022, 04:37:35 PM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #174 on: May 31, 2022, 05:03:19 PM »

So all the previous posts on circumventing other CC&R issues are moot when it comes to specifically dealing with a blanket CC&R prohibition of ham radio antennas. You're choices are not operating, going with stealth antennas, mobile, portable, or remote via internet. Or move.

Even if you don't see it as viable, others may choose to negotiate or litigate.

- Glenn W9IQ

Obviously their choice. I wish them luck ;).
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KD6VXI

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #175 on: May 31, 2022, 05:25:39 PM »

A friend of mine from back in the CB days had a Cadillac Hearse with a 40 foot crank up mounted on it.  Pictures are on the web, search for Undertaker CB Hearse.

I wonder what an HOA would have to say about that?

Another friend has a 'Toter Home' with a 3 section 27 foot antenna on it.  On top of that he had a 5 element Yagi.

Usually you can't have an RV in the area for a length of time, unless behind fences, etc....  But what a great setup for an HOA 😂🤣

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
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K1VSK

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #176 on: May 31, 2022, 06:09:03 PM »


That’s actually a good example of showing flexibility - In the case I am familiar with, the HOA agreed to temporarily suspend watering requirements because of the drought. It happens frequently in California and more infrequently here. HOAs often modify rules for various reasons.

Interestingly, the only thing they cannot change is a closed mind.

In the cases that I am familiar with, the homeowner was heavily fined and only after the homeowner sued the HOA and won, were the fines dismissed. 

Interestingly, it took legal action by the homeowner for the HOA realize that common sense should prevail and the HOA rules were revised to where the county and/or state's rules prevailed over the HOA's rules.

A search of LexisNexus revealed no case resulting in that outcome. Can you cite any reference or state court in which this proceeding occurred?
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K6CPO

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #177 on: June 01, 2022, 12:11:29 PM »

Is the horse dead yet?
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K1VSK

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #178 on: June 02, 2022, 06:15:55 PM »

Is the horse dead yet?

Unfortunately, that has nothing to do with bashing HOAs. Didn’t you realize yet this topic exists merely to provide a venue for some to whine? Or write imaginative anecdotal stories. Usually concurrently.
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W9FIB

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #179 on: June 03, 2022, 02:47:18 AM »

Is the horse dead yet?

As long as there are Hams and HOAs, it will never go away.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.
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