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Author Topic: ARRL drops the ball??  (Read 4364 times)

K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2021, 03:10:57 PM »

[quote author=K1VSK link=topic=132831.msg1219101#msg1219101
.
I kind of did. When we moved here 11 years ago, antennas were prohibited. I joined the local CERT which coincidentally included non-hams on the various Boards here and convinced them we needed some infrastructure to augment the CERT communications infrastructure with the collateral benefit of promoting ham radio and then wrote rules allowing antennas within the aesthetic concerns of the HOA.

[/quote]

Good move! Quite a valid argument when living on the gulf coast of Florida (hurricane and flood alley). But you have to take into consideration the part of the Country in which you live. I question whether that course of action would fly in southern Arizona. A very slim chance of devastating hurricanes, wildfires, floods, tornadoes, earthquakes, etc. in the major metropolitan areas where the overwhelming majority of HOA communities are located. We do get isolated monsoon thunderstorms during the summer that could be somewhat fierce for a half hour or so. But that's about it. Emergency response and advanced communications are quite capably handled by the local police and fire departments. HOA antenna denials are basically a question of aesthetics (lots of desert scenery and mountains) and safety.

But yes, an approach such as yours could work ( and obviously has) in vulnerable disaster prone parts of the Country.

Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2021, 03:40:14 PM »



But yes, an approach such as yours could work ( and obviously has) in vulnerable disaster prone parts of the Country.

Bob K7JQ

My example wasn’t intended as a suggestion or model and the CERT connections with Board members was merely coincidental. If there is any lesson to be learned from my scenario, it is to make the best of whatever situation presents itself.
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W9FIB

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #47 on: March 05, 2021, 03:44:00 AM »



Your comments do not fit the narrative here.
Not sure you realize that you seem to always take differing opinions personally as though you are threatened by them. Try focusing on the message, not the messenger.
Your opinion is simply that - it invalidates or contradicts nothing I wrote.

Actually I did. You just picked 1 line and ignored the rest. Oh well. That's what happens when you question self proclaimed experts.
there you go again but thanks for proving my point.

Anytime.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

W1MOW

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #48 on: March 05, 2021, 08:05:15 AM »



But yes, an approach such as yours could work ( and obviously has) in vulnerable disaster prone parts of the Country.

Bob K7JQ

My example wasn’t intended as a suggestion or model and the CERT connections with Board members was merely coincidental. If there is any lesson to be learned from my scenario, it is to make the best of whatever situation presents itself.

My thought was there are probably a lot of people here on eHam who could use your experience and help with dealing with HOA's. Maybe you could help and guide them in their quest. With your help many more hams can successfully operate from HOA communities.

Gary W1MOW
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The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt - Bertram Russell (1935)

So not much has changed in almost 90 years!

W1MOW

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #49 on: March 05, 2021, 08:21:05 AM »


s a P.E. I will always try to assist any hams in my area with any issues regarding any engineering/zoning issues.

Gary W1MOW

Gary you just made a huge mistake admitting you are a PE on this site. You just lost all credibility. ;D  There are no rules of laws of physics in ham radio, just ask Carl.

I've admitted it before, and suffered the wrath of Carl. When dealing with him I remember a statement made by one of my college professor's back in the day..."A truly intelligent person realizes he does not know all the answers, and is always willing to learn. An ignorant person is one who thinks he knows all the answers, and needs to prove to the world how smart he is, and is unwilling to listen to others who may disagree with him."

Carl is just a curmudgeon, and wears it as a badge of honor.

Gary W1MOW
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The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt - Bertram Russell (1935)

So not much has changed in almost 90 years!

K1VSK

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #50 on: March 05, 2021, 08:46:24 AM »



But yes, an approach such as yours could work ( and obviously has) in vulnerable disaster prone parts of the Country.

Bob K7JQ

My example wasn’t intended as a suggestion or model and the CERT connections with Board members was merely coincidental. If there is any lesson to be learned from my scenario, it is to make the best of whatever situation presents itself.

My thought was there are probably a lot of people here on eHam who could use your experience and help with dealing with HOA's. Maybe you could help and guide them in their quest. With your help many more hams can successfully operate from HOA communities.

Gary W1MOW
Not sure I would have anything to offer if someone asked, however, it’s interesting to note that among all the threads about this topic, I don’t recall even one person ever asking for help from anyone. Begs the question - why?
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #51 on: March 05, 2021, 11:40:52 AM »



But yes, an approach such as yours could work ( and obviously has) in vulnerable disaster prone parts of the Country.

Bob K7JQ

My example wasn’t intended as a suggestion or model and the CERT connections with Board members was merely coincidental. If there is any lesson to be learned from my scenario, it is to make the best of whatever situation presents itself.

My thought was there are probably a lot of people here on eHam who could use your experience and help with dealing with HOA's. Maybe you could help and guide them in their quest. With your help many more hams can successfully operate from HOA communities.

Gary W1MOW

I think suggestions on how to deal with an HOA and CC&R antenna restrictions have been made, discussed, and debated on this forum ad nauseum (I like that phrase) in the past. Some examples:

1. Emergency communications in times of disaster.
2. OTARD law for TV reception...why not ham antennas?
3. I'll keep my antennas out of sight.
4. I'm legally licensed by the FCC to operate.
5. My neighbors don't care, and I have their permission.
6. Become president of the HOA.
7. Join the Architectural Committee.
8. A power point presentation at an HOA meeting.
9. Aww, c'mon guys...let me enjoy my hobby ;D.
10. Ignore the HOA, and erect a stealth antenna...see what happens ::).

I'm sure you can conjure up some other suggestions besides my tongue-
in-cheek ones. But the fact remains that CC&R's are legally enforceable
rules, and the HOA can do whatever they want. It's up to the individual
to do what they feel is best in their unique situation.

Bob K7JQ



   

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KF5LJW

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2021, 11:51:00 AM »

1. Emergency communications in times of disaster.

That will get a lot of laughs.

10. Ignore the HOA, and erect a stealth antenna...see what happens ::).

Spoken like a ham. Do not need no stinking rules. 
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2021, 12:46:13 PM »

1. Emergency communications in times of disaster.

That will get a lot of laughs.

It worked for K1VSK.
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N2EY

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #54 on: March 05, 2021, 01:00:29 PM »

Why do you think people move into HOA's for?

Whole bunch of reasons. A short list:

- School district
- Price
- Location
- Community amenities
- Lack of reasonable alternatives
- Spousal pressure
- Fear

(there are more, those are just the reasons that come to mind)

Here's the BIG problem:

There are a considerable number of hams who live in HOAs/CCR-restricted homes who weren't hams when they moved there. Outdoor antennas weren't a consideration for them when they were house-hunting - but that's changed. Simply saying "MOVE!!" isn't always or even usually helpful.

There's also the situation where a child in an HOA family develops an interest in Amateur Radio. Does the whole family pack up and move so Son or Daughter can have an antenna?

Some HOA boards are reasonable. Some aren't. Some HOA rules allow exceptions, some don't. I have seen too many HOA horror stories, though.

---

As for "the ARRL", they've got two major problems in situations like this:

1) It is better to do nothing than to do the wrong thing. From what I have read, the proposal that was voted down was the wrong thing.

2) No matter what "the ARRL" does, there will be many who won't like it and will be vocal about not liking it.

There are a considerable number of amateurs who think that "the ARRL" should NOT be involved in this issue. Their position is "you voluntarily signed a contract to follow the rules. If you don't like the rules, MOVE."

There are a considerable number of amateurs who think that "the ARRL" should be involved in this issue. Their position is "the rules are arbitrary and unreasonable. The no-antennas rule was set aside for TV antennas, why not for other antennas?" They also see no-antennas rules as a real threat to Amateur Radio as such rules become more and more prevalent in new home construction.

No matter what "The ARRL" does, they can't please both of the above groups.

This problem isn't new; ARRL has faced it since the beginning. Here's an example from history:

From the beginning of Amateur Radio until the early 1930s, the only voice mode amateurs used was AM. AM is a great mode, but it takes up a lot of spectrum, and the HF 'phone subbands were often a maze of heterodynes and QRM with a relatively few AM stations battling to be heard.

In the 1930s a handful of amateurs experimented with SSB, but the cost and complexity were far beyond what most amateurs could do. Then came WW2, and US amateur radio went silent for almost 4 years.

After V-J day, American amateurs got back on the air with a vengeance. The Great Depression was over, the war was over, WW2 surplus was inexpensive and plentiful. Many GIs who had learned Radio in the military became hams.

And the HF 'phone subbands were more crowded than ever.

Interest in SSB by amateurs revived too - but with some big differences. The phasing method of SSB generation, known for decades, became practical because of a 1946 Electronics article showing how to design the audio phase shift network needed for it. Surplus parts and advances in electronics made it much less expensive and easier to build an amateur SSB transmitter. Most of all, those interested in SSB wrote both theoretical (how SSB works and why it's better) and practical (build it!) articles for various magazines.

"The ARRL" decided to promote SSB. Besides the articles, there was a feature in QST almost every month called "On The Air With Single Sideband". The Handbook got an SSB chapter, and soon a compilation book "Single Sideband For The Radio Amateur" was published.

The ARRL leadership of those times felt they had to promote SSB. Amateur Radio was supposed to be "technically progressive", and SSB was already in use on HF with great success by commercial users, as well as being considered by the US military. And a lot of hams were interested.

But a lot of hams didn't like it at all. They complained that "ARRL is shoving SSB down our throats". They didn't want to sound like Donald Duck, didn't want a mode that required lots of complex circuits with lots of fussy adjustments, and didn't want to see their prized AM setups become worthless and unwanted. If the 'phone subbands were too crowded, they said, ARRL should get FCC to widen them!

That's just one example. On almost any issue, the same thing happens.



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K1VSK

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #55 on: March 05, 2021, 01:21:29 PM »

1. Emergency communications in times of disaster.

That will get a lot of laughs.

It worked for K1VSK.
Actually, i would agree that emergency communications was irrelevant to my situation.
Don’t know if I wasn’t clear or somehow implied that but emergency communications played no part other than my association with some Board members who happened to be involved with the CERT.

We did discuss if having HF antennas could somehow support the CERT communications infrastructure but dismissed that as a justification based on the fact my 10- 20M antenna isn’t very useful for local comms compared with VHH/UHF which they use.

The rules we adopted here for antennas specifically excluded more than one so actually, I cannot have a VHF antenna with my present one.

So, I would agree that emergency/disaster communications isn’t a valid basis to influence decisions.

If anything, the issue turned on a level of mutual respect and a sense I wasn’t trying to “get away with something” like a stealth antenna.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 01:39:09 PM by K1VSK »
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K0UA

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #56 on: March 06, 2021, 12:13:21 PM »

Quote
I am sure some folks want to raise cattle or have a gun range in the back yard.

I don't want to raise cattle (anymore) I had my fill of that as a youngster,, but that gun range has some real appeal. Provided we could build a high enough backstop. :)
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73  James K0UA

WW5F

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2021, 05:07:47 PM »

My initial impression:  It was voted down because even they realized they were beating a dead horse?

HOA's were created for the sole purpose of maintaining property values.  This is the over-riding trump card on any decision about pushing the limits of the letter of the law, as written in CC&Rs.

Deed restrictions have been pretty much settled law since the early 80s.  If there's a "no antenna" clause in your CC&Rs, the only thing case law has settled for you is that you can ignore it and put up an antenna less than one meter in diameter designed to receive direct broadcast services.  No one cares about it any more, except those who sign the contract and then disagree with what they signed after signing it.

OTARD and PRB-1 have settled this matter.  This horse is dead.

Either do your homework, figure out the character/priorities/mood/dynamics of your current HOA board and turn on the charm at your meetings and get them to understand and agree with what you wish to do, or drop it.  Or try a hidden antenna and hope you don't get caught.  That's all you can do. There's already an overwhelming amount of information you can use and modify/tailor to present as your case to the HOA board available with quick internet searches.  No need for the ARRL to throw more money at producing duplicate stuff.

Besides, Washington DC is now currently overwhelmed and racing to try to solve the problems of several short-term thinkers and non-thinkers who aren't capable of thinking in a "cause and effect" way.  History be damned, full speed ahead!  It's not worth any of their effort to try to usurp state and local law to cater to, at most, a couple hundred thousand voter hams.

I live in an HOA and I'm following the rules I agreed to when I signed the contract.  It was the last thing I checked before I made an offer.  I remember hearing my buying realtor call the selling realtor and saying, "He just needs to review the CC&Rs and he'll be ready to make an offer." And the selling realtor asking, "Why does he need to see those?"  Why can't every one else do this?  For those who bought into an HOA and *then* became hams, what the heck to expect me to do for you?

Besides, ham radio is going to be pushed way further down the list of concerns/priorities for many people in the very near future so this section of the ARRL minutes is a non-issue.
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KF5LJW

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2021, 05:58:19 PM »

Besides, ham radio is going to be pushed way further down the list of concerns/priorities for many people in the very near future so this section of the ARRL minutes is a non-issue.
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #59 on: March 08, 2021, 12:31:21 PM »


Either do your homework, figure out the character/priorities/mood/dynamics of your current HOA board and turn on the charm at your meetings and get them to understand and agree with what you wish to do, or drop it.  Or try a hidden antenna and hope you don't get caught.  That's all you can do.


Based on my experiences, I agree with this. But the problem still exists if you're looking to buy, and a house you like is in a HOA with CC&R antenna restrictions, be VERY careful. A HOA can't render a decision to waive any restrictions BEFORE you buy. Don't listen to your realtor if he/she says..."Oh, don't worry about it. You don't have to read the CC&R's". Or if the model home sales agent says antennas will be OK, even if he/she offers to put it in writing in the sales agreement. They're just trying to make a sale. Once you sign on the dotted line, the HOA can claim that the agents didn't have the authorization to issue any such waivers. All kinds of legal ramifications can leave you SOL.

Bob K7JQ
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