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Author Topic: ARRL drops the ball??  (Read 4370 times)

AC2EU

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2021, 05:45:50 AM »

I suppose you think that if a Ham gets arrested, the ARRL should post his bail too?

In a similar matter HOAs are are legal troubles you got yourself into. It is not incumbent upon the organization to help you with that.

The subject here is ARRL funding to address the HOA problem, not the HOA problem itself.
It's a waste of time and money for the ARRL to formally address it.

That being said, no matter how much whining and demanding Taylor Swift did, she didn't get her contract changed either.

K1VSK

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2021, 06:10:13 AM »

It is mystifying that throughout the years ARRL spent (wasted) on this effort, they never even considered attempting to quantify the number of hams adversely affected by CC&Rs.

Or asked those living in HOAs what if any help they need or want.

There’s nothing so misguided like trying to solve a problem which isn’t defined, quantified or verified.
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2021, 07:25:20 AM »

HOA residents approach their governing boards for all manners of requests, not just ham radio.

Saying that you signed a contract, blah blah blah is just plain ignorant and argumentative.  If the board
has an avenue for a resident to make those requests, then what is the issue??

Forcing Federal legislation to allow antennas would seem to be counter productive and would put amateur radio in a bad light.  Providing an amateur, or anyone for that matter, with the knowledge to successfully plead an argument to persuade the board members seems to be a logical and gentlemanly means to an end.

I am saying that if the ARRL intends to continue fighting for Federal preemption I think they are making a mistake and should have taken a more amical route that avoids conflicts.  Certainly hams have been able to install antennas in HOAs by asking permission and making a reasoned argument and asking for a reasonable wavier that would not upset the HOA standards, as have others for other needs or desires besides ham radio.

I think telling hams to go stealth is evading the contract and breaking that covenant.  It would be better to have permission to install that stealth antenna in the first place.

And I would point out that some responders on here need to read the site manager's rules regarding comments.

W1BR,

First, I saw your qrz.com page, and wow...impressive! Quite a collection, and brings back memories of ham radio of yesteryear.

Now, as a resident of three HOA/CC&R antenna restricted communities in the last 29 years, I feel I'm somewhat qualified to comment on your above post.

With all due respect, I'm sure your intentions are noble, but I believe you're a little naive in your thinking. Do you now or have you ever lived in such a community? Signing a contract (blah, blah, blah) is *not* "just plain ignorant and argumentative". You are subject to sanctions and legal remedies if you break the rules. Yes, if the language of a CC&R states something like.. "[subject] is prohibited,unless approved by the Architectural Committe", there is an avenue to plead your case for approval. And yes, there's a *possibility* that you could gain approval from an understanding and liberal HOA committee. But I'd be willing to bet that such a possibility is in the overwhelming minority. Achieving approval for putting decorative stone facing on the front of your house, or beautiful landscaping, is quite different from erecting a visible ugly metal structure or wires and cables in the backyard. As I said in a previous post, neighbors don't want to see that stuff, or have it fall on their property. And the HOA generally decides on that premise.

In all three of my communities, I've tried your suggestion, and amicably applied for "logical and gentlemanly" permission to erect a (in my opinion) nondescript vertical or dipole in the backyard, only to be denied each time. One being a nasty "CEASE and DESIST" order...before I even put it up! I'm sorry, but sometimes it's better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission.

Now understand, I fully knew the CC&R restrictions before I bought, but large antennas are not my priority in life. I happen to love where I now live, don't have a problem with all the other CC&R regulations, and I abide by them. Using stealth attic dipoles and non-visible outside ground and fence-mounted motorized screwdriver antennas, I'm able to enjoy my hobby, and the HOA and neighbors have no clue. If I'm "caught" (and it's been 19 years), I'll deal with it at such time. They issue a warning first, and you're not fined or taken to court unless you don't remedy the violation within their specified amount of time. 

As far as abiding by the site manager's rules, I'm not telling people to avoid HOA communities per se. There's nothing wrong with living in one. But, again, if visible antennas are your priority, I'd advise you to look elsewhere. An HOA is powerless to grant CC&R waivers if you don't live there. Once you sign on the dotted line, you take a chance with antenna approval.

Just one person's experience.

Bob K7JQ
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W1BR

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2021, 09:49:23 AM »



W1BR,


With all due respect, I'm sure your intentions are noble, but I believe you're a little naive in your thinking. Do you now or have you ever lived in such a community? Signing a contract (blah, blah, blah) is *not* "just plain ignorant and argumentative". You are subject to sanctions and legal remedies if you break the rules. Yes, if the language of a CC&R states something like.. "[subject] is prohibited,unless approved by the Architectural Committe", there is an avenue to plead your case for approval. And yes, there's a *possibility* that you could gain approval from an understanding and liberal HOA committee. But I'd be willing to bet that such a possibility is in the overwhelming minority. Achieving approval for putting decorative stone facing on the front of your house, or beautiful landscaping, is quite different from erecting a visible ugly metal structure or wires and cables in the backyard. As I said in a previous post, neighbors don't want to see that stuff, or have it fall on their property. And the HOA generally decides on that premise.

In all three of my communities, I've tried your suggestion, and amicably applied for "logical and gentlemanly" permission to erect a (in my opinion) nondescript vertical or dipole in the backyard, only to be denied each time. One being a nasty "CEASE and DESIST" order...before I even put it up! I'm sorry, but sometimes it's better to ask for forgiveness rather than permission.

Now understand, I fully knew the CC&R restrictions before I bought, but large antennas are not my priority in life. I happen to love where I now live, don't have a problem with all the other CC&R regulations, and I abide by them. Using stealth attic dipoles and non-visible outside ground and fence-mounted motorized screwdriver antennas, I'm able to enjoy my hobby, and the HOA and neighbors have no clue. If I'm "caught" (and it's been 19 years), I'll deal with it at such time. They issue a warning first, and you're not fined or taken to court unless you don't remedy the violation within their specified amount of time. 

As far as abiding by the site manager's rules, I'm not telling people to avoid HOA communities per se. There's nothing wrong with living in one. But, again, if visible antennas are your priority, I'd advise you to look elsewhere. An HOA is powerless to grant CC&R waivers if you don't live there. Once you sign on the dotted line, you take a chance with antenna approval.

Just one person's experience.

Bob K7JQ

Bob, sorry for your bad experiences. But I will note that K1VSK has posted numerous times that it is
possible to ask for permission and receive it.  Perhaps he will care to expain his past statements?

Pete
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2021, 11:50:42 AM »

Pete,

There are always possibilities and exceptions (I expressed that), and I don't doubt K1VSK's examples. I don't have hard evidence as he always espouses, and I'm just going by my experiences here in the Phoenix, AZ area. Maybe they're different in Florida. But I believe overall it's MUCH more difficult to obtain antenna approval than the other way around. Remember, the CC&R restriction is already in place, and agreed to at home purchase. It's much easier for an Architectural Committee to deny one ham operator, rather than deal with the objections of many of his surrounding neighbors complaining about the eyesore.

So far, all ARRL attempts at legislation have failed. Maybe providing written and illustrated material for hams to plead their case to the HOA might help in some instances. But I can understand the reasons why the proposal was voted down.

Always interesting to get various opinions.

73,  Bob K7JQ



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KF5LJW

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2021, 12:04:44 PM »

I think telling hams to go stealth is evading the contract and breaking that covenant.
Perhaps you should read what the site owner says this web site was put here for. The site owner promotes breaking contracts and rules.
Quote
If everyone had avoided HOAs and other restrictive situations, this forum wouldn't exist.

https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,98199.0.html

Read it for yourself.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 12:08:07 PM by KF5LJW »
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K1VSK

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2021, 12:20:57 PM »





Bob, sorry for your bad experiences. But I will note that K1VSK has posted numerous times that it is
possible to ask for permission and receive it.  Perhaps he will care to expain his past statements?

Pete
Not sure I know what you want me to explain.
By way of one example, there are 70+ hams in our HOA (population 24,000). The Architectural Committee has received only a few requests for antennas in the 11 years we have lived here - all were approved with one exception - a 60 ft tower. That ham subsequent to the tower denial sought and received approval for a 35 ft mast and Hexbeam. I and his neighbors helped build and erect it. And this is an HOA which has a CC&R antenna prohibition.

Obviously, not all people have similar experiences, however, it does clearly show the issue isn’t pervasive, that CC&Rs are not irrevocable and that there is a need to better define if and how pervasive the problem ARRL seeks to solve really is. 
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AC2EU

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2021, 01:04:59 PM »

Quote
So far, all ARRL attempts at legislation have failed. Maybe providing written and illustrated material for hams to plead their case to the HOA might help in some instances. But I can understand the reasons why the proposal was voted down.

Always interesting to get various opinions.

73,  Bob K7JQ

The attempt to lobby congress was really the only shot there was to universally help Hams in HOA situations.

Now that it was tried and failed, it's time to stop squandering ARRL member funds on a very small percentage of Hams. The ARRL is not a legal aid society! The solution is a local negotiation on a case by case basis by those individuals who seek a variance, period.  I don't think it's appropriate to for the ARRL to take up the mantle to overturn the contractual obligations of it's members.

K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2021, 01:11:28 PM »


Obviously, not all people have similar experiences, however, it does clearly show the issue isn’t pervasive, that CC&Rs are not irrevocable and that there is a need to better define if and how pervasive the problem ARRL seeks to solve really is.

Don K1VSK,

Based on the existence of perhaps tens of thousands of HOA's around the Country, I don't see how the ARRL can possibly research and define how pervasive the problem really is. But the mere fact that boilerplate CC&R's contain ham radio antenna restrictions indicates a need for a ham to address the issue before he/she buys a house. There's no way to know how relaxed individual HOA's are in enforcing the regulations or issuing approvals. But with the restrictions legally enforceable, an Architectural Committee can do whatever it wants, without recourse. I don't think anything the ARRL does is going to make any difference, based on their years of failures to obtain legislation.

Basically, a ham living in an HOA community has two ways to go...1- Ask for permission. 2- Put something up without permission and hope for the best. Strictly the individual's choice.

Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2021, 01:28:40 PM »




Based on the existence of perhaps tens of thousands of HOA's around the Country, I don't see how the ARRL can possibly research and define how pervasive the problem really is.

Bob K7JQ
I don't agree Bob.

They routinely survey members about who operates VHF, how many plan to participate in  some contest, how much money we spend annually on the hobby, how many plan to buy a new rig next year, etc... yet never ask the obvious question.

They routinely solicit for contributions to the fund du jour yet cant ask us what we think (about anything). It can't come as an ephipany to the ARRL that maybe they should ask how many live in an HOA or how many HOA residents are constrained by rules by a sampling poll easily extrapolated into real numbers.

Clearly, they can devise a simple inexpensive way to solicit opinions if they wanted to. It certainly appears they don't want those answers as it may not fit the narrative they project.
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2021, 03:20:11 PM »




Based on the existence of perhaps tens of thousands of HOA's around the Country, I don't see how the ARRL can possibly research and define how pervasive the problem really is.

Bob K7JQ
I don't agree Bob.

They routinely survey members about who operates VHF, how many plan to participate in  some contest, how much money we spend annually on the hobby, how many plan to buy a new rig next year, etc... yet never ask the obvious question.

They routinely solicit for contributions to the fund du jour yet cant ask us what we think (about anything). It can't come as an ephipany to the ARRL that maybe they should ask how many live in an HOA or how many HOA residents are constrained by rules by a sampling poll easily extrapolated into real numbers.

Clearly, they can devise a simple inexpensive way to solicit opinions if they wanted to. It certainly appears they don't want those answers as it may not fit the narrative they project.

Well, Don, on this topic we'll have to agree to disagree ;). Neither one of us can say for sure how pervasive it is. Granted, I get snail mail solicitations from the ARRL for contributions, and they could include a survey like "Who lives in an HOA and is severely affected or denied antennas by CC&R restrictions?". But (I researched) there are 776,440 hams in the US, and ARRL membership is 161,000.

How many would answer such a survey? How many, seeing it's a request for donations, don't even open the envelope, and throw it in the trash? Could you *really* extrapolate meaningful numbers from the responses (how accurate have political sample polls been recently)? How many hams are actually active and care about restrictions? At what number would you consider "pervasive"?

The ARRL must have some kind of handle on numbers and deem it a significant problem. Restrictions prevent a ham from operating. Not operating, they lose interest. Losing interest, they don't belong to the ARRL. Dwindling membership affects their existence. So they do have a dog in the fight.

I think you'd be surprised at the numbers if a meaningful poll existed. But of course it's just my opinion, different from yours.

73 and stay safe,  Bob K7JQ
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KF5LJW

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2021, 04:05:04 PM »

But (I researched) there are 776,440 hams in the US, and ARRL membership is 161,000.

There lies the crux of the issue. Even if every licensed hams were an ARRL member, would not amount to anything politically. Not enough members or money to pay the rent in WDC office to lobby congress. Let alone a good lawyer. ARRL cannot afford to buy any politicians and HOA's don't want clothes lines strung through trees.
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W1BR

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2021, 05:40:36 PM »

But (I researched) there are 776,440 hams in the US, and ARRL membership is 161,000.

There lies the crux of the issue. Even if every licensed hams were an ARRL member, would not amount to anything politically. Not enough members or money to pay the rent in WDC office to lobby congress. Let alone a good lawyer. ARRL cannot afford to buy any politicians and HOA's don't want clothes lines strung through trees.

Tough luck on the clotheslines...  https://www.google.com/url?q=https://communityassociations.net/florida-homeowners-clothesline/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwilyqHD_pLvAhW1GVkFHUFaA3sQFjAKegQIDRAB&usg=AOvVaw2utFVNcvuL7NbWhKWNcM78
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KF5LJW

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2021, 05:55:14 PM »

Tough luck on the clotheslines...  https://www.google.com/url?q=https://communityassociations.net/florida-homeowners-clothesline/&sa=U&ved=2ahUKEwilyqHD_pLvAhW1GVkFHUFaA3sQFjAKegQIDRAB&usg=AOvVaw2utFVNcvuL7NbWhKWNcM78

Doh! You got me there. At least clotheslines serves a purpose and saves energy. Try to explain your clothesline up 30-feet :P
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 05:59:56 PM by KF5LJW »
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K1VSK

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2021, 06:13:43 PM »





How many would answer such a survey? How many, seeing it's a request for donations, don't even open the envelope, and throw it in the trash? Could you *really* extrapolate meaningful numbers from the responses (how accurate have political sample polls been recently)? How many hams are actually active and care about restrictions? At what number would you consider "pervasive"?


Not a snail mail poll which would be both expensive and largely ignored but rather something similar to the silly on-line polls they routinely put in QST which reaches all members and generates large response numbers according to their data. Cheap, easy, not labor intensive and quick for all involved to both respond and tabulate. There is no rational reason for not doing so.

Even if they receive a small response, that too is indicative of the ambivalence to the issue. But they don't even try which implies they don't want an answer.

It serves no purpose debating it here but the simple fact the ARRL hasn't exerted any effort to identify the magnitude of this "problem" is telling.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2021, 06:18:02 PM by K1VSK »
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