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Author Topic: ARRL drops the ball??  (Read 4375 times)

K1VSK

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #60 on: March 09, 2021, 07:37:48 AM »



Based on my experiences, I agree with this. But the problem still exists if you're looking to buy, and a house you like is in a HOA with CC&R antenna restrictions, be VERY careful. A HOA can't render a decision to waive any restrictions BEFORE you buy. Don't listen to your realtor if he/she says..."Oh, don't worry about it. You don't have to read the CC&R's". Or if the model home sales agent says antennas will be OK, even if he/she offers to put it in writing in the sales agreement. They're just trying to make a sale. Once you sign on the dotted line, the HOA can claim that the agents didn't have the authorization to issue any such waivers. All kinds of legal ramifications can leave you SOL.

Bob K7JQ

All good advice.

You got me thinking - how difficult is it to review CC&Rs while contemplating home purchase?

A quick look at a bunch of HOAs in my area as well as some large ones in Arizona, Georgia and elsewhere in Florida appear to have their CC&Rs readily available on their internet site.

Unless we’re referring to the narrow scope of only those who decide post purchase to enter the hobby, it seems to me it should not be any surprise to buyers what is contained therein on which to make the appropriate buying decision.

If it’s correct that HOAs generally do disclose CC&Rs in this manner, it becomes a simple decision of priorities. In that sense, to put it in terms of the title of this thread, “who dropped the ball”?
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #61 on: March 09, 2021, 08:41:47 AM »


All good advice.

You got me thinking - how difficult is it to review CC&Rs while contemplating home purchase?

A quick look at a bunch of HOAs in my area as well as some large ones in Arizona, Georgia and elsewhere in Florida appear to have their CC&Rs readily available on their internet site.

Unless we’re referring to the narrow scope of only those who decide post purchase to enter the hobby, it seems to me it should not be any surprise to buyers what is contained therein on which to make the appropriate buying decision.

If it’s correct that HOAs generally do disclose CC&Rs in this manner, it becomes a simple decision of priorities. In that sense, to put it in terms of the title of this thread, “who dropped the ball”?

It's not difficult at all to obtain the CC&R's of a prospective home purchase, whether available on the internet or a paper packet. A competent realtor, not just interested in making their commission, should always advise (actually insist) their client to read the CC&R's carefully, whether being a ham or not. So should a sales person at a new community model home center, if the buyer is not represented by a realtor. Sadly, this doesn't always happen.

You're always given a copy of the CC&R's with the final signing documents. If you haven't already read them in advance, then you better read them before signing. Unfortunately, you're usually so excited about your new home, and there's such a mountain of paperwork in front of you, this step can be missed. Then it's "oops!" when you go to erect an antenna.

With the exception of a person that becomes a ham after purchase, the only one who "dropped the ball" is the clueless home buyer. Then they come on these forums and complain they can't have antennas ::).

Bob K7JQ
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W1MOW

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #62 on: March 09, 2021, 09:19:03 AM »

One of my son's is looking to buy a newer house in Southern New Hampshire. Having grown up in a family with law enforcement and legal ties, (I am a retired USAF OSI SAC, my wife is a retired USAF JAG Lawyer.) he watches for any legal issues. They are finding it very hard to find any newer construction that does not have HOA restrictions. When he asks about CCR's he is almost always told we'll go over them at close, or the agent does not have a copy on them at this time, or some other excuse. Only 2 agents actually had them available to read. One CCR actually said that children were the main problem in any HOA community, and had extensive rules regarding families with children.

In the 4 HOA's that we lived in, we never had a problem looking at, or getting a copy of the CCR's when looking at houses. Is this a new thing, not having copies for buyers to review before closing?

Gary W1MOW
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 09:23:07 AM by W1MOW »
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The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt - Bertram Russell (1935)

So not much has changed in almost 90 years!

W9IQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #63 on: March 09, 2021, 09:39:57 AM »

You're always given a copy of the CC&R's with the final signing documents. If you haven't already read them in advance, then you better read them before signing. Unfortunately, you're usually so excited about your new home, and there's such a mountain of paperwork in front of you, this step can be missed.

My procedure is to ask for all pertinent documents prior to making an offer- this generally motivates the selling agent. If the market is competitive and an offer must be made without delay, then I would put a clause in the offer that makes it subject to CC&Rs suitable to the purchaser's interests. But then you must act quickly to remove this restriction so as to avoid losing out to an offer made without such restriction.

Never rely on website versions of CC&Rs and other legal documents. They do not have legal standing compared to what you will "agree" to at the time of closing.

In any case, you should insist on full, advance copies of all documents that will be presented at the closing. If these documents are not available a couple of days prior to closing, someone is not doing their job properly which in itself should be a red flag. I regularly catch scrivener's errors that would not easily be detected during the typically rushed signing process.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K1VSK

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2021, 09:42:48 AM »

. Is this a new thing, not having copies for buyers to review before closing?

Gary W1MOW
A lot of closings, particularly now, are done on the computer rather than the traditional way of meeting at a bank or law office. Our daughter and son-in-law recently purchased a home nearby and not one piece of paper or pen was in sight and they ‘signed’ everything from their home. The ‘official’ legal CC&R documents were included as a read attachment to the closing transfer.

Also, CC&Rs can be voluminous- ours is 80 pages - which makes it silly to think any buyer will thoroughly read it during the transaction. All of this consternation we read here is self-inflicted as anyone doing their due diligence should easily anticipate the need to understand what they are buying and act responsibly to ensure no surprises. And if someone doesn’t like what they read, options exist.

And as has been pointed out, exceptions, grants and waivers from CC&Rs can frequently be had.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 09:46:18 AM by K1VSK »
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #65 on: March 09, 2021, 10:26:16 AM »


Never rely on website versions of CC&Rs and other legal documents. They do not have legal standing compared to what you will "agree" to at the time of closing.

- Glenn W9IQ

Are you sure of that? I would *think* (I could be wrong) that if the CC&R's of a new home community posted on their "official" website offering homes for sale were changed and different at your closing (assuming the original document was still on the website), you'd have some legal recourse that you were mislead. And also assuming there was no fine print disclaimer that terms could change at time of purchase.

Bob K7JQ
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #66 on: March 09, 2021, 10:35:52 AM »


And as has been pointed out, exceptions, grants and waivers from CC&Rs can frequently be had.


....But only AFTER you've officially become the homeowner. I don't think you could get a CC&R waiver written into a purchase contract if such exception has to approved by the HOA Architectural Committee.
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W9IQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #67 on: March 09, 2021, 10:52:48 AM »

Are you sure of that? I would *think* (I could be wrong) that if the CC&R's of a new home community posted on their "official" website offering homes for sale were changed and different at your closing (assuming the original document was still on the website), you'd have some legal recourse that you were mislead. And also assuming there was no fine print disclaimer that terms could change at time of purchase.

Bob K7JQ

Quite certain, Bob as the official versions will be present at the time of closing and require your endorsement or acknowledgement.

If this is a concern at the time of offer, you should condition your offer that the current CC&Rs are as published on the website as of that date.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K1VSK

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #68 on: March 09, 2021, 11:16:48 AM »


And as has been pointed out, exceptions, grants and waivers from CC&Rs can frequently be had.


....But only AFTER you've officially become the homeowner. I don't think you could get a CC&R waiver written into a purchase contract if such exception has to approved by the HOA Architectural Committee.
Correct. I should have stipulated - subsequent to purchase.

As to the other issue of precedence, the documents I found on line are scanned PDFs, all of a date certain thereby in effect as of that date. About the only jeopardy with depending on accessibility is any change(s) to CC&Rs subsequent to uploading and as we all know, changes to these limitations don’t fall like raindrops.
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N2EY

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #69 on: March 09, 2021, 12:44:31 PM »

It's not difficult at all to obtain the CC&R's of a prospective home purchase, whether available on the internet or a paper packet. A competent realtor, not just interested in making their commission, should always advise (actually insist) their client to read the CC&R's carefully, whether being a ham or not. So should a sales person at a new community model home center, if the buyer is not represented by a realtor. Sadly, this doesn't always happen.

Depends entirely on the location.

When I was buying my present home, I insistedon seeing the deed restrictions on the property. My RE attorney had to go to the county courthouse and dig them up. About a page and a half, nothing about antennas, but all kinds of fun stuff now covered by zoning. The house was built in 1950

You're always given a copy of the CC&R's with the final signing documents.

I wasn't.

If you haven't already read them in advance, then you better read them before signing. Unfortunately, you're usually so excited about your new home, and there's such a mountain of paperwork in front of you, this step can be missed. Then it's "oops!" when you go to erect an antenna.

If someone waits until closing, they've waited far too long. What are you going to do - walk away?

With the exception of a person that becomes a ham after purchase, the only one who "dropped the ball" is the clueless home buyer. Then they come on these forums and complain they can't have antennas ::).

True - but a LOT of hams today bought their present homes before they became hams.

There's also the "hot market" problem. I saw this in action back in 2004-5.

Back then, I was thinking of moving. Looked at a lot of homes in this general area. Had to stay in the same township for family reasons.

Back then the market was HOT. A house would go on sale at noon, and by 6 pm there were three signed offers, all at or above asking price, no contingencies, no conditions, pre-approved financing. The disclosure documents did NOT reveal CC&Rs.

How is anyone supposed to perform due diligence in such a market? By the time a potential buyer scheduled a home inspector, or looked up the deed restrictions, or even talked it over with their spouse, the house was GONE. SOLD.

In many cases, the houses that were affordable and needed some TLC were bought by developer/renovators who bought them for the land, tore them down and put up a McMansion that sold for top dollar.

-----

Some things to remember about real estate:

1) Most of the people involved don't make any money until there is an actual sale.

2) Most of the people involved buy and sell more real estate in a month than you will in your entire life. They're pros at it, you're not. Combine this with Rule 1 and it's clear who has the upper hand.

3) Most of the people involved have NO idea what amateur radio is, let alone what you mean by "putting up an antenna". If they do have an idea, it's generally completely inaccurate.

4) ALWAYS employ a COMPETENT real estate attorney. Not just any lawyer, but one who specializes in real estate. You may think you know what a particular document says, but your interpretation doesn't mean beans if you're wrong.

5) Explain to both your realtor and your attorney, in writing, what is and is not acceptable in any house you will buy. If either tries to get you to buy something that violates what you wrote, replace them.

6) Insist on seeing any and all documents long before closing - and long before signing anything. There should be NOTHING new at the closing.

 
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #70 on: March 09, 2021, 02:19:18 PM »

N2EY,

I agree with most of what you said (aren't you lucky ;D). But a couple of clarifying comments:

*Extensive* CC&R's didn't come into being until around the late 1970's-early 1980's. Nobody, including realtors, really thought about them on a house built in 1950. But if you weren't given a copy, no matter how insignificant they are, you should have been. Who knows...you could have been seriously affected by something enforceable in them. I think it's been implied that our discussions here have been fairly modernized...1980's to the present.

As far as walking away at closing, why not? It's done all the time on other issues in real estate transactions. I know it's painful, but if you're priority is to have a workable ham radio antenna, it'll be more painful if you buy and find out later you can't.

I did clarify my statement about "clueless" home buyers with the "exception of those who become hams after the purchase".

Buying in a "hot market" where there's no time to read documents?...tough timing and bad luck if you're pressed to buy something. Then it's time to assess your priorities...normal living conditions or another agenda, like "must have an antenna". Sometimes you can't have both. But markets like that will usually reach a bubble in a relatively short period of time, and eventually burst.

I agree with your six things to remember, except with #2. It's up to you and your due diligence to insure that YOU have the upper hand. Buying a home is a big decision.

73,  Bob K7JQ

 
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K1VSK

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #71 on: March 09, 2021, 03:02:23 PM »

.

As far as walking away at closing, why not? It's done all the time on other issues in real estate transactions. I know it's painful, but if you're priority is to have a workable ham radio antenna, it'll be more painful if you buy and find out later you can't.


Walking out of a closing is quite common in commercial real estate transactions. There is usually nothing compelling anyone from going through with a purchase and residential real estate is or shouldn’t be any different. If someone is about to be homeless if they don’t complete a purchase immediately, they have “dropped the ball”. There is always another house.

“Not having time” to review CC&Rs is a weak excuse. Especially for anyone who is interested in the affect on lifestyle.

And while most people never heard of ham radio, everyone understands the words “antenna” and “tower” so if someone can’t communicate that effectively with a broker or closing agent, that too is a self-inflicted problem which can’t rationally be explained away.


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AC2EU

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #72 on: March 09, 2021, 04:22:01 PM »

.

As far as walking away at closing, why not? It's done all the time on other issues in real estate transactions. I know it's painful, but if you're priority is to have a workable ham radio antenna, it'll be more painful if you buy and find out later you can't.


Walking out of a closing is quite common in commercial real estate transactions. There is usually nothing compelling anyone from going through with a purchase and residential real estate is or shouldn’t be any different. If someone is about to be homeless if they don’t complete a purchase immediately, they have “dropped the ball”. There is always another house.

“Not having time” to review CC&Rs is a weak excuse. Especially for anyone who is interested in the affect on lifestyle.

And while most people never heard of ham radio, everyone understands the words “antenna” and “tower” so if someone can’t communicate that effectively with a broker or closing agent, that too is a self-inflicted problem which can’t rationally be explained away.

you could have made the offer contingent upon reading and accepting the CC&R .

You really aren't compelled to go through with a bad transaction. I was at closing back when the interest rates were going crazy high.  At the table, the bank informed that there was another FED hike so they were going to charge another point and a half on the mortgage. I said NO DEAL. You should have seen the jaws drop!  There was a pow wow and I got the mortgage for the original rate.

If you drop your drawers, you'll get what you deserve.  :o ::) ;D

N2EY

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2021, 07:49:16 PM »

N2EY,

I agree with most of what you said (aren't you lucky ;D). But a couple of clarifying comments:

*Extensive* CC&R's didn't come into being until around the late 1970's-early 1980's.

True. Point is, they have a long sad history. Their original purpose in many cases was to keep "those people" out of "our nice neighborhoods".

From what I have read, the big reason for no-antennas CC&Rs was cable TV. The developers and cable TV folks worked out a deal: new developments were wired for cable while being built, the houses were advertised as "cable ready", and when homeowners discovered the poor reception they got with "rabbit ears", most of them signed up for cable.

Quote
Nobody, including realtors, really thought about them on a house built in 1950.

Where I live, the land had been a farm, and IIRC zoning wasn't in effect then. So most of the deed restrictions were about things that zoning and nuisance ordinances would cover.

One that was of particular interest was the requirement that only a single family home with a sale price of at least $10,000 could be built on the lot. Old timers say that's what these homes sold for back then.

Quote
But if you weren't given a copy, no matter how insignificant they are, you should have been. Who knows...you could have been seriously affected by something enforceable in them.

That's why I insistedon seeing them before I signed anything.

I think it's been implied that our discussions here have been fairly modernized...1980's to the present.

True. My point was that CC&Rs aren't new, and that even "old" houses can have them. And even if they are obscure, all it takes is ONE Gladys Kravitz neighbor to make a fuss.

As far as walking away at closing, why not? It's done all the time on other issues in real estate transactions. I know it's painful, but if you're priority is to have a workable ham radio antenna, it'll be more painful if you buy and find out later you can't.

How would that work in real life?

Consider this situation: A married couple with kids needs a bigger house in a good school district. Their existing house is too small and a long commute to their jobs.

They fix up their existing house and put it on the market, and find a new, bigger house in a good school district that has what they need - AND they can afford it. And their old house sells.

They have two closings on the same day - one in the morning for their old house, one in the afternoon on their new house. The day before closing, the movers came and loaded all their stuff into the moving van, to be delivered to the new house the day after closing.

The first closing goes smoothly; their old house is sold. But at the closing on the new house something comes up - how do they just walk away? Where do they live until they find another house?

I did clarify my statement about "clueless" home buyers with the "exception of those who become hams after the purchase".

I wasn't disagreeing. Just pointing out that, unlike when you and I started out, there are many many hams today getting started after becoming homeowners, not when they were teenagers.

Buying in a "hot market" where there's no time to read documents?...tough timing and bad luck if you're pressed to buy something. Then it's time to assess your priorities...normal living conditions or another agenda, like "must have an antenna". Sometimes you can't have both. But markets like that will usually reach a bubble in a relatively short period of time, and eventually burst.

And then what - move again? For many, that's just not practical.

In my case, I stayed where I was and fixed up the house. Still here. The bubble burst in 2008 - four years later.

I agree with your six things to remember, except with #2. It's up to you and your due diligence to insure that YOU have the upper hand. Buying a home is a big decision.

I agree, and I'm going to reword #2.

How about this:

2) Most of the people involved buy and sell more real estate in a month than you will in your entire life. They're pros at it, you're not. Combine this with Rule 1 and it's clear who can control the situation IF you let them. So always remember that YOU are the customer, and insist on what YOU require, and complete explanations and written guarantees.
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K7JQ

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Re: ARRL drops the ball??
« Reply #74 on: March 10, 2021, 07:17:32 AM »


Quote
True. Point is, they (CC&R's) have a long sad history. Their original purpose in many cases was to keep "those people" out of "our nice neighborhoods".

From what I have read, the big reason for no-antennas CC&Rs was cable TV. The developers and cable TV folks worked out a deal: new developments were wired for cable while being built, the houses were advertised as "cable ready", and when homeowners discovered the poor reception they got with "rabbit ears", most of them signed up for cable.

Could you imagine today if CC&R's were deemed to "keep those people out of our nice neighborhoods"? The civil outrage and litigation would be never ending. There would be calls to abolish CC&R's altogether, and rightly so.

The cable TV issue has since been overridden by the OTARD law, allowing small satellite dishes and over-the-air TV reception antennas to be allowed. I believe the main reasons for ham radio antenna restrictions are aesthetics and safety.

Quote
True. My point was that CC&Rs aren't new, and that even "old" houses can have them. And even if they are obscure, all it takes is ONE Gladys Kravitz neighbor to make a fuss.

I believe Gladys Kravitz has been modernized to "Karen" ;D.

Quote
How would that (walking away) work in real life?

Consider this situation: A married couple with kids needs a bigger house in a good school district. Their existing house is too small and a long commute to their jobs.

They fix up their existing house and put it on the market, and find a new, bigger house in a good school district that has what they need - AND they can afford it. And their old house sells.

They have two closings on the same day - one in the morning for their old house, one in the afternoon on their new house. The day before closing, the movers came and loaded all their stuff into the moving van, to be delivered to the new house the day after closing.

The first closing goes smoothly; their old house is sold. But at the closing on the new house something comes up - how do they just walk away? Where do they live until they find anoher house?
Quote

Yeah, that would suck. You'd essentially be homeless if you walked away. You're really between a rock and a hard place, and the only answer is the need to make a quick, hard decision based on immediate priorities. Somewhere along the line the research and due diligence was flawed, putting you in that position. Many times not the buyer's fault.

I think that for the overwhelming majority of the population, CC&R's are not a major hurdle in a house buying decision. Yes, antenna restrictions are a pain for hams, but if you're a normal law-abiding person that takes pride in the upkeep and appearance of your property, they're mostly a non-issue.

Bob K7JQ
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