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Author Topic: S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV  (Read 716 times)

NN2X

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S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV
« on: April 09, 2021, 04:30:05 PM »

Hi Fellow Hams..

As the title suggest, I have noise every where (S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV). using SSB is worthless! Digital is fine...

I recall a few years back, there is noise canceling unit, basically have two antennas, and phase out the noise. I believe the bulk of the noise is coming from the power lines, however, not to sure..In either case, I need something! To at least cancel 50% of the noise..

Or, are these new rigs like Yaesu FT-DX10, have power enough algorithms in the Noise Reduction feature? I have the FT 450 (Yaesu), and it does have a noise reduction feature, and it dampens the blow, but not enough to have a normal operating system..

I am using a vertical, (DX Commander), classic, 10-40, along with the SPE 1K Solid State Amp, the issue is not being heard, the issue to hear the receiving station ...Using about 400 watts...the link is normally balanced (S9 to S9 if you will)...

Look forward to your suggestions

NN2X / Tom
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K0IZ

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Re: S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2021, 05:12:17 PM »

A friend used the MFJ1026.  Worked well for RFI in one specific direction.  Sounds to me that you have stuff coming from all over.  You probably could phase out the worst one, but have to live with the rest.

There's quite a bit of info out there about finding RFI.  First thing is to put your radio on backup power and pull house power.  If noise stops, it's local.  Then use an AM radio tuned to high end and walk around.  It should do a decent job of locating when it's really bad.

Good luck.

John.
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NN2X

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Re: S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2021, 06:10:13 PM »

A friend used the MFJ1026.  Worked well for RFI in one specific direction.  Sounds to me that you have stuff coming from all over.  You probably could phase out the worst one, but have to live with the rest.

There's quite a bit of info out there about finding RFI.  First thing is to put your radio on backup power and pull house power.  If noise stops, it's local.  Then use an AM radio tuned to high end and walk around.  It should do a decent job of locating when it's really bad.



Good luck.

John.

Great advice, I will try this tomorrow..Thanks NN2X TOM
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WB8VLC

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Re: S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2021, 06:12:18 PM »

A new radio probably won't do it for you and as K0IZ said if your noise is coming from several directions then the MFJ1026 will not work, besides the 1026 is very very sensitive and hard to adjusting the aux antenna gain and phase especially when used with a omni TX antenna.

 I find that the mfj1026 works best if the main tx antenna is a directional type other wise I use a individual active Loop rx antenna which works very well.

You could try something like the W6LVP loop which I use with my lower band verticals.

Since  I have directional antennas for 17 to 6 meters it is on these bands where the mfj1026 works fine along with having the need to use 3 selectable aux rx noise sense antennas with the MFJ box, it's easy to switch  in 1 of the 3 noise sense antennas at a time depending on the beam heading that my main HF beam is pointed at.

I was fortunate to have a ice storm that took out about a thousand miles of old infrastructure a month ago and once the lines, pole xformers etc. were replaced my noise across hf to 6 meters dropped significantly so I don't use the MFJ box that much anymore but I still use the W6LVP loop because it is a very good directional lower HF receive antenna for 20 meters and below.


Since you probably don't want to go the ice storm route waiting for the next storm to hit while also going a week and a half without power I would look at the W6LVP active loop rx antenna or some of the clones of the LVP loop which are considerably lower in cost but operate just as well.


Once you get familiar with an active loop antenna you can also use it to track down the direction/directions of your noise sources and most of all since the HF propagation is still tanked out getting to know the workings of a loop antenna may keep you from getting  bored from listening to static.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 06:16:29 PM by WB8VLC »
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W4NBO

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Re: S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2021, 06:35:33 PM »

Some power co's, usually larger ones, have RFI location equipment for their lines and people who know how to use them. In my case, the small local util can contact the distributor (TVA in my case) where they have the equipment. Due to the intermittent nature of many power line arc's, I usually choose to try and locate it myself since TVA, who is at best an hours drive away, would often show up and the arc be gone.

Its a lot to type for detail but I have radios of various frequencies and many directional antennas to find the pole. Then built the W1TRC ultrasonic dish in the QST article to pinpoint on the pole to usually about a 2 or 3 foot circle. MFJ may make one, have not looked lately. Its actually another hobby in of itself and is usually very time consuming but can be rewarding finding it especially as I did today actually hearing it on the ultrasonic.

Oh, make sure you are chasing the right noise. I retransmit the noise from my station. Listening on that HT while comparing audibly to the radio I am using to triangulate. It helps if the noise has a distinctive pattern which most of mine morph into a pattern but you often have to wait until it does. Nothing more frustrating than chasing the wrong noise and there is lots of noise around many poles at least in my area but not necessarily noise that affects the station receiver.

As to solar panels, I know little about rfi for those. I have one plasma tv i hear on 80m or at least I think its a plasma tv. Just waiting for it to die on its own.......

73
Chuck
AF4O
« Last Edit: April 09, 2021, 06:39:55 PM by AF4O »
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XW0LP

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Re: S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2021, 07:38:10 PM »

Move!  (Yes I know it might not be possible....)

Here in Laos, the power lines and transformers are not maintained, and I have such close by my house.

I've signed up for Starlink (Elon Musk's fast satellite internet).  As soon as it is available here (early 2022), I'm moving to the 'middle of nowhere' in Laos where it's electrically-quiet and I have room for decent antennas.  I need the fast internet connection for my online science classes, but fibre line only covers the main cities.
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KF5LJW

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Re: S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2021, 07:58:07 PM »

I would start by isolating the noise sources and work to quite them down rather than look for a band-aid. Example sounds like your Plasma TV as all Plasma TV's are extremely noisy. Get rid of it and get an LED TV.
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G4AON

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Re: S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV
« Reply #7 on: April 10, 2021, 12:05:01 AM »

There are several ways to try and reduce the problem, assuming you either cannot locate it or the equipment owner is not being cooperative.

An effective feedline choke on your vertical will reduce the chances of noise on your house wiring reaching your antenna, it will also stop the feeder acting as a radial.

A receive only active antenna. A rotatable loop is particularly effective, although a fixed active RX antenna mounted as far as practical away from houses and wiring can help.

A phasing box, such as the MFJ 1025/1026. These can sometimes work, but need a lot of fiddly adjustments.

The cheapest solution is the choke, followed by a home brew active antenna. I have a PA0RDT type active antenna in the corner of my garden, it is used mostly with an SDR to feed signals to the Reverse Beacon Network.

There was a “flag antenna” in March 2021 QST, it looks ideal for HF DF use. Cheap and easy to make.

https://www.qsl.net/g4aon/pa0rdt_aa/

73 Dave
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W9IQ

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Re: S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2021, 02:56:52 AM »

An effective feedline choke on your vertical will reduce the chances of noise on your house wiring reaching your antenna, it will also stop the feeder acting as a radial.

I agree with Dave but given the degree of your problem, I recommend one choke near the point where the coax exits your vertical's radial field (or feedpoint if no radials) and another one before the coax enters the house. These should be high quality, ferrite type baluns ' not ugly baluns or other marginal types.

Of course, identifying and eliminating as many of the interferers as possible should be part of the solution.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K1VSK

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Re: S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV
« Reply #9 on: April 10, 2021, 07:06:49 AM »

Didn’t bother reading the responses so this maybe redundant but -

Before you waste this, effort and money fixing a problem, it’s a good idea to define it first. Minimizing noise at the source is always a better choice.

For example, if your problem is largely conductive noise, the fix is fundamentally different compared with that for radiated noise. Absent knowing the cause(s), the prior suggestions can all be misleading.
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NN2X

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Re: S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2021, 09:47:26 AM »

I am the original author of the post,

There was some real good advice, and tried all, including Baluns, chokes, ferrites beads...It did make a slight impact actually, I further turn the power from the house, and powered the transceiver with battery..Noise still there..

So, next step, I will try Timewave ANC - 4 Noise canceller, But before I go this route, I will post my plans to attack this...I have my thoughts...

Thanks all!

NN2X / Tom
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KE6VG

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Re: S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV
« Reply #11 on: April 11, 2021, 01:26:06 PM »

Here is a cheap alternative to those that want to try a reliable source on AliExpress. I've purchased several things from this seller over the years.

QRM Eliminator X-Phase
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001786848192.html?spm=2114.12010615.8148356.37.4bb120cbAmJfzA

Also, have you thought about a cheap receive loop? MLA-30+ works really well.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001179032833.html?spm=2114.12010615.8148356.3.6d374585xs9YcA
« Last Edit: April 11, 2021, 01:31:21 PM by KE6VG »
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KH6AQ

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Re: S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2021, 03:42:27 PM »

"Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV."

Your DX-10 spectrum scope might differentiate between those sources.

Power lines: spectral line every 60Hz
Solar panels: spectral lines every 50-200 kHz and drifting in frequency over time.
Plasma TV: kHz range, possibly 33.75 kHz and absolutely frequency stable.

Power Lines: 24/7, possibly weather dependent
Solar Panels: changes with day/night
Plasma TV: not 24/7
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W9IQ

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Re: S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2021, 04:57:42 PM »

Power lines: spectral line every 60Hz

My experience is that power line noise will exhibit a much wider spectrum. Arcing insulators, bad line capacitors, failing breakers, etc. tend to generate noise into the +100 kHz range and its harmonics.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KH6AQ

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Re: S9 to S20 Noise From Power Lines, Solar Panels and Plasma TV
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2021, 07:03:27 PM »

Power lines: spectral line every 60Hz

My experience is that power line noise will exhibit a much wider spectrum. Arcing insulators, bad line capacitors, failing breakers, etc. tend to generate noise into the +100 kHz range and its harmonics.

- Glenn W9IQ




We know that my comment implies harmonics of 60Hz to where they are too feeble to be detected. There will be plenty of timing jitter subject to the when something on the AC line ticks over, so there is phase noise spreading the 60Hz spectral components out more the higher in frequency we go.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2021, 07:25:45 PM by KH6AQ »
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