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Author Topic: Risks of constant upgrades and eventual end of support with SDR  (Read 1286 times)

VA3WEX

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I am considering a new radio and one of the "software defined radios" has caught my eye.  But I don't know really what that involves, particularly on the subject of updates.  The constant "updates for the sake of updates" that one gets with commercial software have me nervous of the whole "software defined" thing. 

Does the software running the radio just stop working one day, until you pay for this year's subscription, rather like an antivirus program?

If you download and update and actually don't like the new features, whatever they are (like what happens with MS-Word, for example) is there any way of going back to a version you liked better?

How much risk is there of the company in a couple of years, while the radio is still actually good, saying "sorry, we don't support that anymore--you'll have to buy a new radio"?
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KG4RUL

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Re: Risks of constant upgrades and eventual end of support with SDR
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2021, 01:22:04 PM »

I am considering a new radio and one of the "software defined radios" has caught my eye.  But I don't know really what that involves, particularly on the subject of updates.  The constant "updates for the sake of updates" that one gets with commercial software have me nervous of the whole "software defined" thing. 

Does the software running the radio just stop working one day, until you pay for this year's subscription, rather like an antivirus program?

I am not aware of any that exhibit that behavior.

If you download and update and actually don't like the new features, whatever they are (like what happens with MS-Word, for example) is there any way of going back to a version you liked better?

Software is software and older versions should be able to be reloaded with the proviso that any firmware updates may also have to be rolled back.

How much risk is there of the company in a couple of years, while the radio is still actually good, saying "sorry, we don't support that anymore--you'll have to buy a new radio"?

That happens with companies both big and small, whether they market conventional or SDR rigs.
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W6MK

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Re: Risks of constant upgrades and eventual end of support with SDR
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2021, 03:39:38 PM »

I don't know really what that involves, particularly on the subject of updates.  The constant "updates for the sake of updates" that one gets with commercial software have me nervous of the whole "software defined" thing. 

You have a computer. A SCR is also a computer. Think about operating systems, upgrades, planned obsolescence, advertising, perpetual new "apps" and those kinds of things.
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K0UA

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Re: Risks of constant upgrades and eventual end of support with SDR
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2021, 04:16:07 PM »

I own several Icom SDR radios, and I have done the updates as they have come out, but no one forces you to do them. It is up to you if you want the new features and bug fixes or not. The rig doesn't do them itself.

You don't pay for the upgrades, they are free. At least from Icom. Maybe some of the companies charge for upgrades..  Don't buy those.
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73  James K0UA

N2DTS

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Re: Risks of constant upgrades and eventual end of support with SDR
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2021, 04:35:29 PM »

People are still using the original flex 1000 sdr on the air.
Its getting a bit harder I think since it used to be controlled over a parallel printer port interface but there is a modern way around that.
The Flex 1500, 3000 and 5000 are still in use and work much better then when new thanks to KE9NS software for them.
I do not think any of them stop working and only Flex charges for updates (a new version).

For computer based sdr radios like the Anan and Flex, you can download the program and never update the sdr software or the computer ever again, don't connect the computer to the web ever, turn updates and anti virus software off and just run the radio till you have a hardware fault or you upgrade to a new setup.
I did that for years without issue, and when I eventually did hook it up to the internet it hosed up my nice windows 7 system.
Windows 7 did not require a login which I liked....

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N6YWU

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Re: Risks of constant upgrades and eventual end of support with SDR
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2021, 05:29:25 PM »

If you stick to documented open protocol SDRs, particularly networked ones, you might not be chained to a single vendor, or particular OS update version.  You can often use new SDR software with old radios, or new SDR radios with old software, just by recompiling stuff for your current PC (or Mac, or Pi, or Linux box).  If the SDR software is open source on GitHub (et.al.), it's usually under version control, which means you can pick up any older revision, build it on your new or old computer, and run whatever you prefer.

There's a ton of software that will talk to RTL-SDR's, and HL2's, using any of a number of different compute platforms (e.g. Wintel-PCs, Macs (x86 or M1), Linux, Raspberry Pi, maybe even Android and iOS devices).  There are multiple independently developed SDR applications that run Apache/Anan's, both old and new models. 

Flex seems to have a developer API, not sure how many independent software developers are using it, or support it on what (sub)set of computer systems.  Anyone know?
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K7LZR

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Re: Risks of constant upgrades and eventual end of support with SDR
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2021, 05:54:22 PM »

I went with the RSP series receivers from SDRPlay in the UK. With these there are no extra costs, no forced upgrades, no surprises. Great value for the money. I dedicated an older computer to only the radio, running Windows 7. I use two of the available programs for these radios depending on my needs at the time and they work great.

I don't know of any SDR vendor which forces upgrades nor uses a subscription business model. Usually you just download the needed software onto your computer, install, and away you go for as long as you like :).

« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 05:57:25 PM by K7LZR »
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K4KRW

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Re: Risks of constant upgrades and eventual end of support with SDR
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2021, 03:46:47 AM »

My experience with SDRs have been with the more conventional radios.  I have a KX3 and a Yaesu FTDX101MP.  I've owned the KX3 for 7 or 8 years and the updates have improved the radio and even added new features.

If you are concerned about any update, just hold off on installing it.  As the community updates their radios it will become clear if there are any problems.

My 101 had a couple of updates with problems earlier this year.  I just waited until the next release came out that fixed all of those issues and had no problems myself.

Richard
K4KRW
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VA3WEX

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Re: Risks of constant upgrades and eventual end of support with SDR
« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2021, 05:57:53 PM »

Excellent information; thank you all. 
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NI0Z

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Re: Risks of constant upgrades and eventual end of support with SDR
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2021, 08:43:08 AM »

The dynamics of all this have changed a bit with the advent of more and more network connected radios.  Why, because of security.  While I have not heard of a radio being hacked, they do become an IOT device when you connect it to a network.  There are millions of BOTs now scanning and attacking IOT devices Billions of times a day.  Why does this matter?  Because if your radio isn't defending against this, bad things could happen.  Its firmware could be overwritten, bricked, or the radio even taken over if left on to send out messages.

If you have a shack that is internet connected you may want to seriously consider a good firewall, especially if you open it up for remote access.  Also, a lot of the smaller software providers may unknowingly pass infected software to you that contains ransomware.

So, my point is that any internet connected radio should be updateable in case issues arise and it needs to be patched or get security updates.  Thus the vendor going out of business question is relevant.

Also, be it that the radio now has a computer built in, Apache-labs, Expert Electronics, ect or you connect your radio to a computer, for all practical purposes you still have a computer and software involved.

73
NI0Z

KF0AEE

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Re: Risks of constant upgrades and eventual end of support with SDR
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2021, 04:02:03 PM »

While I'm still new to SDR, here's my take on the support / obsolescence issue:

The PC / Tablet based SDRs are probably the most future-proof. There are a couple of excellent F/OSS softwares that support most all radios that roughly follow the SoftRock design. Chances are these softwares will continue to be developed and supported.

Like yourself, I'm very wary of proprietary SDRs where you're at the mercy of a single manufacturer. Better off working with open software / hardware implementations, or that's my view anyway.
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WB8LBZ

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Re: Risks of constant upgrades and eventual end of support with SDR
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2021, 07:06:06 AM »

I had an Anan 8000 and it was a fantastic radio. Upgrades to the software were optional and I would not upgrade to each when available. I read the notes and if I didn't find the upgrade useful I would not do it. We have a Windows 7 computer for logging at the radio club no plans to upgrade it. I upgraded a Windows 7 computer to Windows 10 and it was a DOG. Windows 11 is starting to show its head and Windows 10 end of support is planned for 2025. I ran an XT machine in the shack until I had a hardware failure last year. I'm looking into using Linux, at least I won't have to throw the baby out with the bath water every few years.

73, Larry  WB8LBZ
El Paso, TX
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N2DTS

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Re: Risks of constant upgrades and eventual end of support with SDR
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2021, 07:41:14 AM »

If you run an old version of windows, maybe turn auto updates off or never connect it to the web as it will start telling you the licence key is not valid and hose things up.
I liked windows 7 and I don't like windows 10 at all.
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N8YX

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Re: Risks of constant upgrades and eventual end of support with SDR
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2021, 01:31:27 PM »

If you run an old version of windows, maybe turn auto updates off or never connect it to the web
If you run an old (unsupported) version of Windows, build yourself a virtual machine host that can facilitate your SDR's means of communication (i.e., USB or serial I/O) then snapshot your WinX system's hard drive and convert it to a VM image. Clone that as a backup, configure the main image with the required control software (downloaded via removable media) then go play radio.

You have the option of not enabling a virtual NIC with this setup, so no way the running OS can connect to the Internet. You also have the ability to trash a corrupted instance of the VM and copy a known good image into its place.

I've done this with every release of Windows that my various comms-control programs require, including WfW 3.11 all the way up through Windows 10 Pro.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2021, 01:38:05 PM by N8YX »
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VE3WGO

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Re: Risks of constant upgrades and eventual end of support with SDR
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2021, 04:26:25 PM »

I am considering a new radio and one of the "software defined radios" has caught my eye.  But I don't know really what that involves, particularly on the subject of updates.  The constant "updates for the sake of updates" that one gets with commercial software have me nervous of the whole "software defined" thing. 

Does the software running the radio just stop working one day, until you pay for this year's subscription, rather like an antivirus program?

If you download and update and actually don't like the new features, whatever they are (like what happens with MS-Word, for example) is there any way of going back to a version you liked better?

How much risk is there of the company in a couple of years, while the radio is still actually good, saying "sorry, we don't support that anymore--you'll have to buy a new radio"?

But isn't an SDR that has reached the point in life when it will get no new updates just like a longtime traditional radio, ie a "hardware defined radio"?   You know, once you bought it that was it....  no improvements unless you were brave enough to tear into it yourself to make some mods after the warranty expired.  So if that concept bothers you, make sure that the features that you will really want are already working well in the SDR, and not on the manufacturer's future "to do " list.

73, Ed
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 04:32:11 PM by VE3WGO »
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