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Author Topic: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4  (Read 2335 times)

KX2T

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2021, 08:24:19 PM »

For those who want remote rig operation the K4 might also be able to click that box, they did it well on the K3's, maybe not as easy as the Flex but that would be another area were the K4 might excel. From what I could hear at Orlando the K3s and the K4 I would say the audio in the 4 was far improved, I just could never warm up to the K3 I owned so that's a plus. I will say that the delivery of the K4 was long in the tooth and for that reason alone many had bought a different rig instead.
In regards to the 101D its a fine rig, the only thing I don't like is the display and were the AF and RF gain controls are placed but to be honest the 7610 has the same issue in which most are right handed and the dam control's are on the left hand side. BTW Kenwood has been the only company that has gotten it right on the money but its a pure Superhet with a dated DSP but still an outstanding radio. I also have a feeling that we may see either another rig from Icom or a 7610II model with upgraded video/mouse control, improved ADC's and FPGA's with newer adaptive NR and a NB that doesn't distort at all but if Icom is looking at this forum please place the AF/RF controls on the right hand side, lol that part will never happen looking at past rigs from them.
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KC0W

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2021, 09:19:34 PM »

 Wayne from Elecraft commented about the Sherwood review on the K4 reflector.

"We're quite pleased with his test results, which confirm that the K4/K4D is near the top of its class (direct-sampling SDRs). A K4HD would provide somewhat higher dynamic range for those stations in extreme signal environments, but the vast majority of operators will find that the K4/K4D more than meets their needs."

 
 I like how he spun a mediocre product review into,"the vast majority of operators will find that the K4/K4D more than meets their needs". 

 I'm not a Elecraft basher. In fact I've made almost a quarter million QSOs using Elecraft radios. I was just under the impression the K4 would be a Kenwood, Yaesu, Icom & Flex killer. Guess I will just keep on keeping on with my KX3.  :)


                                                      Tom KH0/KC0W       
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N6YWU

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #17 on: May 30, 2021, 10:21:10 PM »

My guess is that Sherwood might be testing it wrong. 

Direct sampling SDRs can sometimes demonstrate more close-in dynamic range with more realistic wide-band uncorrelated additive RF noise than under artificial lab synthesized two tone testing.  Something to do with the processing gain allowed by the higher oversampling rate.  So the numbers look worse, but the receiver actually might perform better under some subset of more realistic conditions.

Just a hypothesis.
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K7JQ

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2021, 07:02:58 AM »

While the Sherwood gobbly-gook of numbers can help in your buying decision, your personal operating requirements, budget, and ergonomics is the bottom line.

I just finished the CQ WPX CW contest with a IC-7300, Acom 1200S (KW), into a ground-mounted Tarheel screwdriver antenna in a HOA antenna restricted community. From the propagation black-hole of southern Arizona, over 1M points, and 1K Q's in under 30 hours. In the super crowded 40M and 20M bands, I mostly had the DSP filter at 100Hz...brick-wall separation between signals. And I've had a lot of radios in my 62 years as a ham.

I'm FAR from a great operator, but I seriously doubt if I would have done any better with a IC-7610, FTDX-101, K3 (or 4), etc. If so, the difference would have been very minimal. Sometimes the huge difference in price will produce minimal increase in performance, real-world.

Just my opinion ;).

Bob K7JQ
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N2DTS

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2021, 07:14:59 AM »

With direct sampling and a 16 bit A/D converter chip, I don't think you can get any better.
You would have to put something in front of the A/D converter which would ruin the ability to have two receivers.
There is nothing Elecraft could do about that but add a lot of components to the radio which they will do with the K4HD model.
Just like other Elecraft radios you can get the basic model without the roofing filters (and not have to pay for it) or if you NEED it you can get all the options.

The base model K4 tops most radios out there in basic config.
Its also likely better then 90% of operators need.

It bests the ftdx5000, theFlex 6400, The Anan 200, the 7610 and the 7300 and everything on down.
I sure am glad they did not just design the radio to be the K4HD and I had to pay for all that stuff I do not want or need.
That would have been really stupid of them.

Maybe people do not understand the concept of the direct sample sdr and think there is something Elecraft could tweak to get better performance?

I think you would have two choices, go 24 bit A/D converter (huge bucks) or superhet that limits the frequency before the A/D converter and has agc and so on.
Both add a lot of cost if you still want receivers on different bands and a wide spectrum display.
The K4HD does the superhet method for another $2000.00?
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N2DTS

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2021, 07:22:13 AM »

It was not a review, it was a performance test.
It is at the top of its design type.


Wayne from Elecraft commented about the Sherwood review on the K4 reflector.

"We're quite pleased with his test results, which confirm that the K4/K4D is near the top of its class (direct-sampling SDRs). A K4HD would provide somewhat higher dynamic range for those stations in extreme signal environments, but the vast majority of operators will find that the K4/K4D more than meets their needs."

 
 I like how he spun a mediocre product review into,"the vast majority of operators will find that the K4/K4D more than meets their needs". 

 I'm not a Elecraft basher. In fact I've made almost a quarter million QSOs using Elecraft radios. I was just under the impression the K4 would be a Kenwood, Yaesu, Icom & Flex killer. Guess I will just keep on keeping on with my KX3.  :)


                                                      Tom KH0/KC0W     
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N6YWU

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2021, 09:39:04 AM »

I think you would have two choices, go 24 bit A/D converter (huge bucks)

24-bits isn't needed.  Just going to 18-bits would buy another 12 dB of dynamic range, which would put direct sampling tech back at the top.  Or it might be easier to quadruple the sample rate to buy another 6 dB.  Or some combination of both.  If technology trends continue, those devices might come down into the amateur radio price range in a few more years.

Another alternative would be to go back to separates: a transmitter, wide-band receiver, several narrow-band supersets, with automated antenna switching, all integrated at a computer control panel to make them work as one virtual transceiver.  Maybe with mag-mount encoder knobs and buttons, so you can move all the controls around to exactly where you want them, that should get rid of all the front-panel complaints.
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N2DTS

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2021, 02:50:52 PM »

That won't be cheaper, or likely any better then the K4HD....

Do they make an 18 bit A/D?
20 or 24 bits would end any issues I suspect.
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N6YWU

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2021, 04:32:21 PM »

Do they make an 18 bit A/D?

Linear appears to make one, but it looks like it's only fast enough for MF and the very bottom segment of HF (80M, 60M) when direct sampling.  So, we may have to wait to see if any faster 18 or 20 bits ADCs become available in the future at some suitable price point, before significantly exceeding K4 receiver specs with just direct sampling.

But for many QTH's these days, just ADCs with more channels may allow making more useful direct sampling receivers (via multi-antenna diversity, beam forming, and noise cancellation).
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N2DTS

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2021, 06:14:02 PM »

Well, its amazing how much faster computers have got, I just bought a new I5 computer, hardly a high end one but compaired to an older I7 its a rocket.
But we are stuck with 16 bit A/D chips for many years....

The world is awash in wifi, bluetooth, 4G and 5G rf devices and you would think they need better chips to deal with it all....
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K0UA

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #25 on: June 01, 2021, 09:12:23 AM »

While the Sherwood gobbly-gook of numbers can help in your buying decision, your personal operating requirements, budget, and ergonomics is the bottom line.

I just finished the CQ WPX CW contest with a IC-7300, Acom 1200S (KW), into a ground-mounted Tarheel screwdriver antenna in a HOA antenna restricted community. From the propagation black-hole of southern Arizona, over 1M points, and 1K Q's in under 30 hours. In the super crowded 40M and 20M bands, I mostly had the DSP filter at 100Hz...brick-wall separation between signals. And I've had a lot of radios in my 62 years as a ham.

I'm FAR from a great operator, but I seriously doubt if I would have done any better with a IC-7610, FTDX-101, K3 (or 4), etc. If so, the difference would have been very minimal. Sometimes the huge difference in price will produce minimal increase in performance, real-world.

Just my opinion ;).

Bob K7JQ

Oh, Bob, you know that is just impossible, so many on here have commented how awful the 7300 is in a contest. They state that they will just curl up and die in any kind high RF environment. :)

 I will state as an owner of two 7300's and one 7610, the 7610 is a better CW rig than the 7300, for a couple of reasons, neither of which is critical. The 7610 has an audio peaking filter, and it does make a difference, albeit maybe a slight one for an experience CW operator with built in filters in their head. Yes, the 7610 is slightly quieter, by a small amount. The truth is the 7300 is so much better than even premium priced rigs from 10 to 15 years ago, and this is for a rig that sells for less than 1000 bucks.

If you want my analysis of the 7300 in a contest, I would state that the average 7300 owner does not have a clue how to operate this radio, in a contest or otherwise. Just look as some of the negative reviews. These are from less than skilled operators.

Bottom line, Bob, I believe you.
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73  James K0UA

K7JQ

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2021, 10:58:49 AM »

While the Sherwood gobbly-gook of numbers can help in your buying decision, your personal operating requirements, budget, and ergonomics is the bottom line.

I just finished the CQ WPX CW contest with a IC-7300, Acom 1200S (KW), into a ground-mounted Tarheel screwdriver antenna in a HOA antenna restricted community. From the propagation black-hole of southern Arizona, over 1M points, and 1K Q's in under 30 hours. In the super crowded 40M and 20M bands, I mostly had the DSP filter at 100Hz...brick-wall separation between signals. And I've had a lot of radios in my 62 years as a ham.

I'm FAR from a great operator, but I seriously doubt if I would have done any better with a IC-7610, FTDX-101, K3 (or 4), etc. If so, the difference would have been very minimal. Sometimes the huge difference in price will produce minimal increase in performance, real-world.

Just my opinion ;).

Bob K7JQ

Oh, Bob, you know that is just impossible, so many on here have commented how awful the 7300 is in a contest. They state that they will just curl up and die in any kind high RF environment. :)

 I will state as an owner of two 7300's and one 7610, the 7610 is a better CW rig than the 7300, for a couple of reasons, neither of which is critical. The 7610 has an audio peaking filter, and it does make a difference, albeit maybe a slight one for an experience CW operator with built in filters in their head. Yes, the 7610 is slightly quieter, by a small amount. The truth is the 7300 is so much better than even premium priced rigs from 10 to 15 years ago, and this is for a rig that sells for less than 1000 bucks.

If you want my analysis of the 7300 in a contest, I would state that the average 7300 owner does not have a clue how to operate this radio, in a contest or otherwise. Just look as some of the negative reviews. These are from less than skilled operators.

Bottom line, Bob, I believe you.

Thank you, James. You hit the nail on the head when you said "neither of which is critical". I've had APF on my previous IC-7600, and honestly (to my ears) I found a very minimal difference in the ability to hear a signal whether APF is on or off. In a contest, *maybe* only a few more Q's, straining my ears. I'm nowhere near a world-class operator, but I have A LOT of CW contest experience, and the 7300, to me is simply better, performance-wise, than anything I've had in the past. And I've operated a K3 in a local M/M contest station.

Nothing wrong with spending bigger bucks if you want more built-in features...external monitor, more I/O ports and RF outputs, two receivers, marginally better Sherwood specs (that human ears can't tell the difference), bigger box, knobs buttons and switches, etc. But I was floored when I put the minimally knobbed and buttoned 7300 to the test in a crowded contest. Like you said, you just have to know how to use it.

But, whatever floats your boat and makes you happy. Some people aren't satisfied unless they have the highest dollar, biggest, and "the best". They pooh-pooh the lowly IC-7300. And then only use it on 75M nets and nightly round-tables with their buddies ;).

Bob K7JQ
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N2DTS

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #27 on: June 01, 2021, 06:05:49 PM »

The 7300 is very easy to use, and has no serious flaws at its price point really.
I suppose, in a contest, getting the radio to do what you want quickly and reliably is important.

I think the Elecraft rigs are popular for contesting also.
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KX2T

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2021, 08:35:41 AM »

For most hams needs the 7300 will do fine, the ultimate channel selectivity is around 110Db which is very good but were the problems will arise is when you place that radio into a BIG antenna farm, this is were that might be an issue or in a multi op station. When I had owned a FTDX3000 and a 7300 at the same time with moderate antennas like a small tribander at 35' and a ZS6BKW at 60' I ran these two radio's side by side during a CQWW phone weekend, the 7300 could pick away at finding a clear spot on 40m at night better than the Yaesu, I used attenuation on both these radio's on the low bands plus no pre amp on the higher bands, its just not needed but I will say that the control flexibility was better on the Yaesu.
Comparing the 7300 to the 7610 is another case were its just that tad better performance of the ADC's and FPGA which just gives that edge in a more competitive operating environment but for every day use they are both great radio's.
As far as the K4 its in the game again, its another knob type SDR, has all the right numbers for an SDR rig but just wait n see on a real review were someone takes the radio home for a week ot two and does some real operating with it, if someone can just walk up and use it and not have to RTFM well ease of use is a plus, another is how easy it is to filter out the guy that just started to call CQ 2Khz away not how great the lab numbers are. I find Icom and Kenwood make the operating ease of use very palatable but Yaesu I feel is not at that level, whoever designed the FTDX101D or even the new FTDX10 just doesn't understand control layout, its almost like someone said wee need this and that feature and just threw it on the front panel with no rime or reason but its all there so this brand there has always been a learning curve. We shall see on the K4, I only had a small amount of time at Orlando to play with the K4 cause they were mad packed but I really didn't warm up to it that fast, there were other rigs which were far easier to use plus I will say it was much nicer that the K3s which I felt was not easy even thou I owned a K3 years back.
Another thing is even if you order one today you maybe be getting it next year so even though its out there delivery times are far away plus by that time I am sure one of the big three from Japan will have something new, we will see.
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K7JQ

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2021, 09:27:10 AM »

While there's no question the K4 (D, HD) will be a very capable contest radio, its inability to timely get to market is going to cost them big time. While many were waiting to get delivery, they were going with the IC-7610 in contests for the past few years, and realizing the extraordinary capabilities of it. And up to $2K less than the proposed prices of the new Elecraft models. Real-world, the K4's performance probably won't be much different than a K3S + P3, just an all-in-one model. From the talk of my hard core contest friends that currently use K3's, they're not planning to make the switch.

Case in point, a recently constructed huge M/M contest station here in Arizona, used (5) 7610's, (1) K3, and (1) Flex 6600 in this past weekend's CQ WPX CW contest...18.5M points. A few participants were well known world-class operators, and they gave the 7610's a big thumbs up.

Being very late to the party, time will tell how successful the K4 line will be.

Bob K7JQ
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