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Author Topic: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4  (Read 2334 times)

KX2T

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2021, 07:09:07 AM »

The problem with the Anan is not its performance but the ease of setting up, this is were Flex has done soo well with many of the op's that come from the 11 meter group and now have there ham ticket. They can set up there rig, operate remote from there car on the cell phone, just another cool thing to do but fades away after the first year of use unless let say you have a home station were the rig is at then for the weekends you end up in the big city so late at night you cant sleep so turn on your I phone and tune in the world. Anan cannot do the remote stuff yet plus there is very little done as far as set up so unless your a computer geek or have friends who are and can help the main stream buyer stays away, the open source is a good idea for the hams who like to tinker but main stream wants plug n play. In defense to the Anan line there noise reduction and noise blanking is the best that is out there, there are some very faint artifacts but these circuits seem to be the best that is out there but someone from the open source group was responsible for making that happen. Its only a matter of time before the big three start going down the road of improving there own and well Flex the jury is still out to lunch on this one.
As far as performance well most of the rigs in the top 25 on that list are way good enough and unless you own a super station like K3LR I don't think you will see all that much difference between many of these rigs today, its more the user interface that counts.
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N2DTS

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2021, 02:41:37 PM »

I think the Anan radios are as close to plug and play as you can get.
I have had 3 or 4 different ones over the years and it could not be any easier.
Download program, plug in radio, turn on, talk.
Yes, you can set up or change almost everything but you do not have to change anything if you do not want.

Remote operation is a separate issue and I do not think many use it as their main mode of operation.
It might be interesting to operate your station from your Iphone but I would think its like watching a movie on you phone, its better on a big screen with big sound.

My Fles 6400M had more latency then my Anan does, a lot more, even though the Flex was thin client...
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N8FNR

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Speaking of just in time issues
« Reply #47 on: June 14, 2021, 11:42:11 AM »

I know that companies love just in time (JIT) but as we have seen it can cause issues. I worked for GM in the IT department at the Detroit/Hamtramck assembly plant and would occasionally see the downside of JIT. A lot of the parts came from far away if not overseas but were scheduled to arrive at an approximate time daily. One time I remember a truck driver who was supposed to deliver glass for the cars had a heart attack while on the road and of course was unable to make the delivery so the assembly line shutdown. Please note that downtime ran about $50000 a minute. JIT usually works great but when things go bad it can get very expensive.

Zack
N8FNR

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NO9E

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2021, 10:57:05 AM »

The plus of Elecraft is that their radios work well and problems are taken care of. They are expensive so they are not a choice for money pinchers but are a good choice to those whose time is worth something.

I have K3. A fine radio with good ergonomics once you get used to it. Gave me an honor roll and lots of fine time ragchewing and contesting.

I bought Flex 6600 two years ago with hope of doing remote operation and SO2R. Enormous amount of time lost trying to get and keep things going. Unending drama.

For Flex sake, it is a revolutionary concept. K4 seems to be integrated/updated  K3S/P3/Remoterig.   
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KX2T

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2021, 11:43:55 AM »

I remember when I first built a K3, before that I had owned three different FT1000MP's for way over 10 years plus. Hams would bitch about the MP's menu system all the time but within an hour or two I had it down pat but NEVER could get used to the K3, the K3's ergonomics sucked along with its RX audio with any external speaker of very good quality headphones. Maybe the K4 might be better only time will tell but the only time I did hear one was at Orlando last year threw an expensive external speaker, I was not blown away but it did seem better than the 2010 K3 I owned.
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NO9E

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2021, 07:26:50 AM »

Early K3 had a bug with high AF distortions that was fixed by a new inductor and then by replacement of the DSP module.

I used to have Ft 1000 Mark V Field with all the filters including the roofing filter. Could not hold the frequency on 20m CW in contests because of a noisy copy. No problem with K3.

Ignacy, NO9E
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AF5CC

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2021, 11:04:08 PM »

Wayne from Elecraft commented about the Sherwood review on the K4 reflector.

"We're quite pleased with his test results, which confirm that the K4/K4D is near the top of its class (direct-sampling SDRs). A K4HD would provide somewhat higher dynamic range for those stations in extreme signal environments, but the vast majority of operators will find that the K4/K4D more than meets their needs."


 
 I like how he spun a mediocre product review into,"the vast majority of operators will find that the K4/K4D more than meets their needs". 

 I'm not a Elecraft basher. In fact I've made almost a quarter million QSOs using Elecraft radios. I was just under the impression the K4 would be a Kenwood, Yaesu, Icom & Flex killer. Guess I will just keep on keeping on with my KX3.  :)


                                                      Tom KH0/KC0W     

For the vast majority of hams, a dualband Baofeng HT appears to meet their needs.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2021, 11:09:40 PM by AF5CC »
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KX2T

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #52 on: July 05, 2021, 07:45:49 AM »

Your comparing a 1000MP series radio which was designed in 1996 to the K3 that was designed in 2007 after the Orion's hit the streets in 2003 which the K3 very closely followed its front end design. Even though the MK5 and the Field came out in the early 2000 years they were basically a re wrapped old MP with more bells but nothing stellar in front end design plus the roofing filter if not modified placed way too much gain between stages to do any real good, it needed to be throttled back a wee bit to work as it should. Not saying the MP's were bad but the Orion's cleaned there clock and the K3 was like the Orion's so your loaded Field was already old technology compared to the down conversion designs.
The K4 is not new technology, at least the SDR model, its more like a 7610 but with some tweaks and there SDR/Superhet model will be more like the Yaesu FTDX101 series but with nicer display and the hopes of an easier remote capability. Sorry I just find the Elecraft rigs kind of poor in appearance and worst than the heathkits as far as look for there time period plus way overpriced for the market but like Flex hams will drink the Kool-Aid and be happy.
When the K3 came out it was priced below the Orion's and anything else at that time but once loaded up with some options it was almost the same but you could grow into it so it was play as you go priced but the K4 is over the top in price plus many had to wait and wait but today I do feel it will go down as another Cult radio but not as main stream as the K3 was.
As far as being a made in America radio well I am sure the final assembly is done here but the sum of the parts are off shore and maybe even the boards but for what they charge for this rig you would expect the boards done here, I just don't see the value in todays market.
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N2DTS

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #53 on: July 05, 2021, 09:47:08 AM »

It seems nothing else out there ticks all the boxes that the K4 does.
Great built in display, check.
HDMI output, check.
Different display on the big display, check.
Mouse support to click on signals AND settings, check.
Four antenna ports, check.
RX antenna ports, check.
Antenna tuner that will tune an antenna, check.
Built in remote support, check.
Great customer support, check.
Designed and made in the US, check.

Lots of other things that I do not remember....

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K7JQ

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #54 on: July 05, 2021, 12:40:39 PM »

It seems nothing else out there ticks all the boxes that the K4 does.
Great built in display, check.
HDMI output, check.
Different display on the big display, check.
Mouse support to click on signals AND settings, check.
Four antenna ports, check.
RX antenna ports, check.
Antenna tuner that will tune an antenna, check.
Built in remote support, check.
Great customer support, check.
Designed and made in the US, check.

Lots of other things that I do not remember....

Try to get your hands on one. Uncheck ::). It's been over two years since deposits were taken. But someday........
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N2DTS

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #55 on: July 05, 2021, 04:15:17 PM »

Same could be said for any other new radio.
I have a deposit in and will get it when I get it.
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KX2T

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #56 on: July 07, 2021, 12:39:07 PM »

The remote software is not even developed yet plus then they have to beta test it or master bait it whichever comes first...
Try and check those boxes when its developed then see if it works, this is not the K3 radio which was allot more simplified to do remote plus by the time you get yours the price may very well go up again!
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I4LEC

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #57 on: July 11, 2021, 08:57:49 AM »

There was a ham review of one which got removed. What goes?

There are still two reviews here on eham. But they are from N6XI and N6TV. To my knowledge, they are "field test" radios provided and authorized by Elecraft. Not from the supposed recent production shipments of original orders to the hams that put down deposits two years ago. On their website, Elecraft claims to have been shipping for the past one to two months. Strange that we haven't seen any reviews from those batches.

Hope the recent one posted, covered the gap, do not why I had to split it in to parts, apparently was too long, but others are actually much longer?
Anyway, full text below, with links, these could not be inserted in the review section.

K4D field test (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zUiZdaxjx6EXzqfNA7YEHy4iE30V8fNw/view?usp=sharing)

A lot has been said already about the recent Sherwood’s lab tests.

Some argued about being even below the K3 on the list, blocking was also a concern, etc.
Aside from the above, for which, given the different architecture, the number is just to pinpoint the value at which IMD3 is starting, without telling what happens from there till the blocking, for which I would suggest Adam’s  IFSS test report, my attempt to emulate the K4 behavior (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1W192h6uLfCu1O1sSGP-n5JhZvFKQu7ak/view?usp=sharing)

The on air test of the K4D #158, was extremely convincing, SSB and CW modes were carried out, a couple of contesters, of which one also took part at the WRTC 2018 were invited at my QTH for a more CW in depth.

Once you turn the radio on (about 20 sec. to boot), the impression is of a “deaf” receiver, the base band noise sounds very low on the headphones, whereas, when you tune on even a weak signal, this, beside being extremely clear and clean, comes out very loud at the point that you are somehow disappointed when looking at the S meter, thinking it might be an S9, instead is only an S5 or less, the audio recovery, is definitely superior to what I am experiencing on my knobless DS on a daily basis.

On the higher bands, the use of pre-amps (up to 3 on 6/10 and 12m) do not change the feeling, given the excellent audio recovery, I found myself not tempted to turn them on, except on 10m and 15m, where given the MDS (500Hz)  at 121dBm (this radio does not have an ADC driver always ON as per the 7610 or the ANAN 7000DLE, probably the only architecture difference among the three) and my rural background noise at -125dBm, the pre1 12dB of gain becomes necessary to have some spare dB of sensitivity from with or without antenna.

The radio was setup at a very basic level, no logging interfacing or else, just an external monitor via an HDMI VGA adapter, a USB wireless mouse plugged in the front USB port, a Yamaha CM500 hooked into the rear 3,5mm plugs was initially attempted, as I could not make it to sound properly (hollow sound), I switched to an old Heil headset using the HC5 cartridge, this suited the radio perfectly from the beginning, just tweak the EQ to my liking.

Several contacts were made on 20 and 40m with good audio reports, the use of the radio was pretty straight forward, even for a knobless operator, the three multi function knobs to the left, along with their aside displayed values allows a very easy access to them, as a side note, being a radio clearly designed to meet the most demanding operators, I would have gave up the main/sub sql control in favor of the AGC threshold, quite meaningful on DS radios.
The digital BW filter works as expected, continuous adj, without loosing intelligibility even at very narrow setting (<2kHz)

A Bencher paddle was used on CW, QSK worked flawless, minimum BW 50Hz, APF at 30 and 50Hz, the CW guy, was having the same impression I had on SSB, given the contest ongoing he went even further telling about the distinct separation among the many signals on the band, no sign of clicks while slightly tuning off of loud signals, easy to pick up multiple stations calling as long as they were not perfectly zero beat, click and tune by means of the mouse and pleased to easily find  a clear spot, even from the on board monitor.

Now the DS Achilles heel, blocking DR, for which Elecraft has a foreseen HD model, radio was put on 40m at sunset, 2L beaming East, at that time in Europe the band from 7.200 and above is full of very loud Asian BC, mostly Chinese at +40/50dB over S9, the attempt was to overload the radio, we went as far as turning ON even the pre2, as we could not make it happen, with the latter ON, for a brief amount of time, I could finally see the magenta + sign turning ON, but the radio was still operating normally, sign of a light temporary OVF. (https://drive.google.com/file/d/10CbwP20vSlZinWxY2YjeersoQZgG6YNs/view?usp=sharing)

More considerations were made and few notes were taken to eventually address to the manufacturer, aside from the predisposed hardware functions as pre-distortion  (coupler & connector) for which a SW might be implemented on a later stage, or diversity which does not have a SW behind it for beamforming/null steering, thus works in stereo mode only, the rec&play function is textually “implementation in progress” along with the messages bank.

The above are objective findings based on the on air operations, as a personal note, being a long time direct sampling user, the choice of not always having a driver in front of the ADC, looks like the winning one, as, even on a quiet rural place, preamp1 is deem necessary only from 15m up, while on mid or low bands, -121 dBm of MDS is more than plenty, making the
radio sounding more pleasant and robust.

73, Clay I4LEC
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N2DTS

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #58 on: July 11, 2021, 05:50:53 PM »

Well, I am locked in on the price, so that's good.
Elecraft has a much better track record of getting things done and done right then say Flex.
And I am a basic user, I don't do anything fancy or complex with my radios, but I want then to do what I want and be easy to use.



The remote software is not even developed yet plus then they have to beta test it or master bait it whichever comes first...
Try and check those boxes when its developed then see if it works, this is not the K3 radio which was allot more simplified to do remote plus by the time you get yours the price may very well go up again!
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KX2T

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Re: Sherwood Review of the Elecraft K4
« Reply #59 on: July 12, 2021, 07:31:00 AM »

Well if you look at what Yaesu had to do with getting the remote software down on the FTDX101 well either it may take the K4 similar amounts of time to develop there own but to some users like yourself that is a none issue. If you want the radio to be the chart toper well then you will also be waiting for the top model which will from what has been said have an SDR platform that will follow a superhet designed front end, this is for that ultra high blocking spec on someone's chart. I have had side by side an FTDX10 vs the IC7610 since Xmas of last year, had allot of time comparing the two and in late winter had come down with covid so there was at least a month I just didn't have the desire to even turn on the radio but did lots of listening. Didn't operate contest cause my voice was shot and didn't even feel like CW but listened allot when the bands were chock full or when the bands were just opening or closing. Have kind of run of the mill station but the antenna seem to work ok but there was NEVER a time that the blocking spec of the FTDX10 ever made the 7610 by comparison poor, every time I compared the two they were exactly the same on any of these observations. The only thing I would see is some differences in received audio either with external speakers which were the same speaker or the same headphones but at no time did one seem more selective that the other but what I did find is the tools as far as NB and NR way different on the two plus the DNF, this is were Yaesu has circuits that IMO are half baked were the Icom was a clear winner. The Yaesu's NR has the artifact that has the slightly under water effect, yes it kills most of the noise but it sounds watery but the Icom's NR seems like almost a high filter on the old stereo's but not distracting from the midrange audio at all so it does I feel a better job with still maintaining the received audio. The NB on the Yaesu is exactly like the ones on the FTDX5000 and 3000, if its a dead band yes it will remove the noise but if there is a signal near by it will distort the signal you want to copy were the Icom NB you can adjust so that distortion is not as great and the copy threw the noise is more pleasing. The DNF on the Yaesu you can tell its on but the Icom seems to have no after affect.
I guess we will see how well the K4 fares against these other rigs, the only way is side by side comparisons not a report like they feel its better and then we will see if the higher price range is really worth the higher investment. When the K3 came out it was an ultra compact version of the Orion TenTec without a display but everything was an option and after done the radio was above the $3K price range, this is the same with the K4 and I really do not think the K4 is going to be any better than the very well designed pack of hi end wolves in the marketplace today plus by the time it is readily available I am sure Icom or Yaesu and maybe Kenwood will have a new radio out that will set a new bar but I feel the the K4 is way too late to the market to really catch on soo many buyers like there K3 trap did, there buy and build in later marketing will not work at the $4k price range plus.
I think they will sell what they can ship of K4's but its not going to be "THE RADIO" that was like there K3 was for many years, there time in the sun has come and gone.
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