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Author Topic: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions  (Read 5126 times)

HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #60 on: September 07, 2021, 03:19:26 PM »

Thank you all for your comments.
 
After the post by LZ1HD about a feedback path. I went back to the alignment procedure created by other hams ( link repeated below ) after I realized that the D2 that was to be shorted in the Bruene coupler alignment procedure was D2 on the Main board not the D2 on the LPF board. The D2 on the Main board detects the level of the incoming drive signal.

https://www.qsl.net/icom/download/ic2kl_align.pdf

The output of D2 when shorted to ground allows the accurate measurement of the reflected power from the Bruene coupler which now reads 4 mV with 6.04 V for the forward power. This calculates to an swr of 1.001.

In a departure from the procedure, I found that monitoring both the forward and reflected voltages helps. The null in reflected power is not as sharp as the simultaneous peak in the forward power so I actually enter the null then peak the forward voltage while staying in the null.

I also found that the new cable I was using going from the LPA-100A to the dummy load is not very good. It resulted in an SWR reading of 1.07 for the dummy load. I replaced it with an older cable that reduced the SWR measured to 1.01.

Correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me that this calibration procedure for the Bruene coupler means that the coupler could be calibrated for any resistance as long as a sufficiently precise load is available. For example, if a load of 75 ohms were used and this procedure followed, the Bruene coupler would then read a 1:1 SWR with a 75 ohm load instead of a 50 ohm load. This because the Bruene coupler is described as a lumped element device not related to its transmission line counterparts though they serve the same purpose.

During this coupler alignment, the input protection circuit of the 2KL had a good test and passed. I am using a Yaesu FT100D as the driver. The FT100D was set to 26 watts output for 500 watts out of the 2KL. The reason why this happened is still unknown, but suddenly the FT100D went to full output power hitting the amplifier with 100 watts. What I found was that the FT100D would not hold its power settings if the power supply was turned off. The FT100D has a separate power setting for 160-10M, one for 6M, one for 2M, and one for 70CM. After a power down, all the power settings went to full power for every band.

Today however, the FT100D is behaving normally. It is retaining the power settings even after power down. I suspect a back up lithium battery might be be going bad but that has yet to be determined. The battery is not as accessible as one might like. 
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 03:31:15 PM by HAMHOCK75 »
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W9IQ

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #61 on: September 07, 2021, 03:48:41 PM »

If you would like to see the full math for the typical SWR meter such as the one you are working on, send me a PM with your email address. I will send you a peer reviewed white paper I wrote several years ago.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

W9IQ

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #62 on: September 08, 2021, 04:53:34 AM »

Simply attempting the calibration procedure with a 75 ohm load will not result in accurate readings. You would also need to change the burden resistor on the current transformer.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #63 on: September 18, 2021, 04:08:18 PM »

W9IQ, thank you for the offer but I think I have digressed too much on the Bruene coupler for now. I might come back to it once I get through all the protection circuits.

Below is simplified schematic of part of the shutdown circuit for the 2KL. Diodes D9 and D22 form an OR circuit so shutdown can be initiated by either an excessive reflected power level OR if the input power is too high OR both.

The circuit is designed so that if the op amp output goes to -10 VDC, shutdown will be triggered. Since the gain of the op amp is -4.85 this means a +2.06 VDC at the input to resistor R22 will trigger shutdown from either or both sources.



To test this circuit, a DC voltage from an HP6205C power supply was injected at the junction of R1 and R2. The voltage was raised until the output on pin 1 of IC1A reached -10 VDC. The voltage was found to be +8.7 VDC. Since R1 and R2 form a 11:1 voltage divider, then voltage at the input to R1 would be about 95.7 Vpeak which into a 50 ohm load is about 91 watts. The RF Input is actually looking into a 50 ohm path to the amplifier modules which I left out for clarity.

The 2KL then has three forms input protection.

1. ALC

2. an input clamp at 70 watts, and

3. shut down is triggered by about 90 watts input
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LZ1HD

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #64 on: September 19, 2021, 12:56:17 AM »

The manual of this amplifier tells us that the protection is activated when the SWR reaches 2.5. In fact, there is no implemented circuitry that is able to calculate SWR. It should not be a criterion for protection of any amplifier, the reflected power is important. Obviously 500 W  FWD power are taken in this case, to which it corresponds 92 W RFL power for SWR 2,5. The same value that HAMHOCK75 calculated that it should activate protection in case of overdrive. Therefore, a common op amp is used.

Veselin LZ1HD
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VR2AX

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #65 on: September 19, 2021, 01:08:26 PM »

Usually with Japanese amplifiers of quality, if protection circuits engage, the manual will instruct you to 'check SWR'.
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HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #66 on: September 20, 2021, 03:16:33 AM »

LZ1HD thank you for your comment.

If 500 watts forward power into a load that has a 2.5:1 SWR results in 92 watts of reflected power or 92 watts input overdrive causes the voltage at the input to the op amp IC1A to be exactly the same, that tells us that there is a special significance to the values of the resistors R1, 2, 3, 26, and 21.

The loss caused by these resistors will be essentially the same as the Bruene coupler coupling factor.

To calculate that with voltages, the coupling factor in db = 20 log ( 2.06/95.7 ) = 33. 3 dB where +2.06 is the detected voltage ( by D2 on the main board ) at the input to the op amp and 95.7 is the peak voltage for a 91.56 watt signal into a 50 ohm load. This is an approximation because both paths have a detector diode in series.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2021, 03:35:19 AM by HAMHOCK75 »
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HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #67 on: October 15, 2021, 04:58:05 PM »

I recently acquired a 7300 to use with further testing of the 2KL. Below is a test of the output power of the 7300 vs. the % output power setting control.



All looked good but 20M seems to have the most error.

Due to concerns about overshoot in the output of the 7300, in each band ( 160, 80, 40, 20, 15, 10, and 6M ) the output was tested with a 40 dB attenuator to a scope with its vertical input terminated in 50 ohms. The output was examined at power settings of 0, 20, 40, 60, 80 and 100%.

This is % power set to “0”. A slight amount of overshoot is visible. These captures were at 28.5 MHz.



20% power output.



40% power output.



60% power output.



80% power output.



100% power output.



These look like pretty normal responses. There is just the hint of overshoot at the lowest power setting of  “0” percent. which disappears by about 5 percent. There was no significant variation between bands.
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LZ1HD

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #68 on: October 16, 2021, 04:50:01 AM »

The more serious problem with the 7300 is that the signal generated by the transceiver remains available for a few milliseconds after the control signal for the amplifier is interrupted. In other words, conditions are created for hot switching of the relays in the amplifier, which can damage them. There is a long discussion on this issue in qrz.com
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HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #69 on: October 18, 2021, 01:54:27 PM »

I found the discussion on QRZ regarding the potential for hot switching when the 7300 is used with an amplifier. It goes on for 18 pages but much of it is repetitive with many not understanding what the problem is. The amplifier relays are set to switch back to receive when there is RF past the switch point.

This is shown in the image below.



There is about a 3 millisecond delay before the RF is completely off. This occurs in Full break-in mode. Since the 2KL is not capable of Full break in, I do not see this as a problem. I have measured few relays capable of switching in 3 milliseconds but if an amplifier used solid state switching it could be problem.

The 7300 tested above has firmware version 1.41 which I believe is the latest.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 02:00:27 PM by HAMHOCK75 »
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LZ1HD

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #70 on: October 18, 2021, 08:42:49 PM »

In my opinion, the solution would be to introduce additional logic in the control of the amplifier, that regardless of the submitted application for switching TX to RX from the transceiver, the amplifier to stay in TX mode while it is still seeing drive power. In fact, this would be necessary if the relays are accelerated for QSK mode. The relays in IC-2KL probably have longer than 3 ms switching time.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2021, 08:59:07 PM by LZ1HD »
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HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #71 on: October 26, 2021, 04:46:44 PM »

This is an analysis of the power output shutdown circuit of the 2KL. Using the simplified schematic below, the voltage transfer function is determined to be,



Vo = – ( R16/R15 ) * ( Vin ) + ( R18 )/ ( R17 + R18 ) * ( R16/R15 ) * ( + 13.8 V )

where Vo is the op amp output voltage on pin 7 and Vin is the forward voltage from the Bruene coupler described earlier. Plugging in values as follows,

    R16 = 1M

    R15 = 470k

    R17 = 220k

    R18 = variable 0 to 100k

reduces Vo = -2.13 Vin + R18/(220k + R18 ) * 29.6 volts.

If R18 = 0, Vo reduces to Vo = -2.13 Vin

If R18 =100k, Vo reduces to Vo = -2.13 Vin + 9.25 volts

R18 does not affect the gain of -2.13 but allows the output to be adjusted up in voltage by as much as +9.25 volts. Its purpose is to set the op amp output voltage Vo = -8 volts when the amplifier output is 500 watts. If the amplifiers output approaches 600 watts, Vo will increase to -10 VDC which will trigger a shutdown. Why -10 VDC triggers a shutdown will be explained in a later post.

As can be seen from the above image, the ALC voltage is derived directly from the Vo output of the op amp.

The meter on the 2KL has at its bottom a scale identified as “PRO” but there is little in the way of explanation what this scale is measuring. According to the manual on page 7, “4. PRO Indicates the operating condition of the the protection circuit. The set should be used so that the meter needle is outside the marked range.”



Again from the simplified schematic, it can be seen that the top scale of the meter is calibrated in watts of output power. The Vo of the op amp is buffered by emitter follower Q1. R11 is adjusted so when the output is 500 watts as determined by an external power meter, the panel meter correctly reads 500 watts. Icom abbreviates this as POM assumed to mean Power Output Meter. The “PRO” position of the meter switch uses the same Vo of the op amp to drive the front panel meter directly through a resistor R38. The PRO scale also measures power but it is not calibrated like the top power output scale.

In the photo of the meter, the PRO position has been selected via the meter switch, the measured output of the amplifier is at 500 watts. The position of the needle represents 500 watts on the PRO scale which is within the marked range mentioned by the manual. If ALC is applied and R1 is adjusted so the needle points at the ALC marked area, the power variation is about the width of that marked range with the low end about 420 watts and the high end of the ALC range about 450 watts. The 7300 was set at an output of about 44 watts to achieve this with the lowest gain on 10M and the second lowest gain on 160M. As the bands are changed, the power output starts at about 420 watts at the low end of the ALC marked area, increases to about 450 watts on the 80, 40, 20 meter bands, then falls back to 420 watts on 10M.
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HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #72 on: November 14, 2021, 10:38:52 PM »

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HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #73 on: November 26, 2021, 02:46:16 PM »

Below is a simplified diagram for the shut down circuit that compares the input power to the output power. According the the instruction manual. “IC2A detects a ratio of the output power and the driving power. If the ratio is less than 3:1, T13V will be shut off.”



The detected forward power from the Bruene coupler is applied to the positive input of the op amp IC2A acting as a comparator. The negative input is the detected input power through a voltage divider consisting of R1 and R2.

As an example of how this circuit works assume the input power is 50 watts which would nominally cause an output power of 500 watts. 50 watts into a 50 ohm load such as the 2KL input yields 50 Vrms. R1 and R2 form a voltage divider of 470/( 4700 + 470 ) = 0.091. This reduces the 50 Vrms to 4.55 Vrms or 6.43 Vpeak.

To calculate the forward output power from the coupler that would produce the same voltage work backward. If the input voltage from the coupler is 6.43 Vpeak, then if the output impedance of the coupler is about 50 ohms, the voltage into 50 ohms would be half or 3.21 Vpeak or 2.27 Vrms representing 0.103 watt. If the coupler coupling factor is 33 dB, this represents a power decrease of about 2,000. The forward power would be about 2,000 x 0.103 watt or 207 watts. Any power below 207 watts would result in the positive input to the op amp dropping below 6.42 V with the result that the op amp output would go to the negative rail causing shut down.

The trip point is sensitive to the actual coupling factor of the coupler. It can be shown that the trip point would change about as follows depending on the actual coupling factor,



The final shut down circuit senses the current through R2, a 5 watt, 0.012 ohm resistor mounted on the back panel. According the 2KL instruction manual. “IC2B detects collector current of the PA transistors (Ic) and puts out -8 volts ALC voltage when the Ic is at 23 amperes. If the Ic reaches 25 amperes ( ALC voltage is -10V), T13V will be shut off.”

The simplified circuit is shown below.



The voltage dividers formed by R30, 31, 32 and R34, 35, 36, and 37 reduce the input voltage of 40 VDC to about 10 VDC. The op amp, IC2B has a gain of 100.

25A through R2 would result in a 0.3 VDC drop. That difference is reduced by the voltage dividers to about 0.07 VDC at the input to the op amp which amplifies the difference to 7 VDC. R36 is used to reduce the voltage at the positive input of the op amp until the output drops to -10 VDC which initiates shut down.

Posted earlier is the simplified shut down circuit below in which it was described that pulling the base of Q5 low would cut off the bias to amplifiers PA1 and PA2.



This is a simplified diagram showing the circuit that allows a -10 VDC op amp output to cause shut down. Before we get to the more complex shut down mechanism, there is a simple one shown by the path of the red traces below.

S2 is thermal switch which is normally open. At 80 degrees C, it shorts out. When that happens, current flows through a red LED on the front panel labelled “Protection”. Current will also flow through resistor R54 of the shut down circuit which will bring the base voltage of Q5 in the shut down circuit to zero, which then shuts off the bias to PA1 and PA2.



Below the more complex shut down works as follows. There are four conditions that can create a -10 V input to the diodes D7 through D11 which perform an OR function. If any of the four conditions results in a -10 V input to those diodes, the 10.7 volt zener D12 will bring the voltage at the base of Q2 down which results in both Q2 and Q3 turning on. Current will then flow as shown by the red lines with the red “Protection” LED coming on and current flowing through resistor R54 of the shut down circuit which will bring the base voltage of Q5 in the circuit to zero, which shuts off bias to PA1 and PA2

R44 adjusts the shut down to occur at -10 VDC..

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W9IQ

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #74 on: November 26, 2021, 04:11:18 PM »

Without looking at the schematic of this particular Bruenne bridge, forward voltage is normally incident (output) voltage plus reflected voltage. If that is the case, the logic of the first comparator is subtly different than described.

The input power sense circuit has a diode after the voltage divider that probably should be taken into account in the circuit analysis.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.
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