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Author Topic: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions  (Read 5126 times)

HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #75 on: January 10, 2022, 12:52:35 PM »

Thank you W9IQ. I always appreciate your review. I did assume a voltage drop for the input power sense diode but I don't recall actually measuring it.

This is a look at how the 2KL works in the time domain. It departs from the classic behavior of class AB. The classic AB amplifier behaves as shown in this University of Pennsylvania article.

https://www.seas.upenn.edu/~ese319/Lecture_Notes/Lec_22_ClassAB_Amplifier_12.pdf



Below is the input to the input transformer of PA1 with the 2KL set for 500 watts output on 160 M. There is some ripple but as we shall see, that ripple is likely created by the very non-linear junction behavior of the power transistors.



This is what is found at the transformer outputs. There is obvious clipping as the base emitter junctions of the power transistors clamp the input. The purple trace uses the math function of the oscilloscope to do A-B of both channels with the sum bearing a strong resemblance to the input signal.



This is the output measured on both collectors of each device on PA1. Notice that both device’s collectors are driven into hard saturation long before 500 watts output is reached.

The power supply voltage for the 2KL power devices is +40 VDC. The reason the collector voltages rise above +40 VDC is during the time that the devices are turned off, the output transformer acts similarly to a heavily loaded flyback transformer. What is interesting is that it is the flyback voltage created by the output transformer and the possibly the following low pass filter that tends to negate the distortion caused by collector saturation. The purple trace is the A-B sum which shows substantially less distortion than one might expect from just looking at the collector voltages.



It is also easy to see in the time domain that even with matched devices, there is clearly a gain difference at RF frequencies for the device with the blue trace having greater gain than the device with the yellow trace.

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W0BKR

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2022, 06:04:10 AM »

Have the 2KL, sweet, compact and efficient amp.  I do not yet have the 10 meter mod implemented, perhaps someday when 10 opens up will have that motivation
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N8YX

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2022, 06:57:58 AM »

Have the 2KL, sweet, compact and efficient amp.  I do not yet have the 10 meter mod implemented, perhaps someday when 10 opens up will have that motivation
I think I mentioned earlier in thread that I have two - one is a U.S. model (w/o 10M on the front-panel band switch) and the other is an "export" unit (which has full HF coverage from the factory. Including a labeled front panel and selector switch with a 10M spot).

The U.S. unit has had the 10M mod performed, though it operates on that band only while in "remote" mode. No big deal, as it's used with an IC-720A, IC-745 or IC-751A. There are much better performing Icom transceivers out in the marketplace now but every now and then I get the urge to put the vintage stuff on the air and brave the band conditions sans DSP.
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HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2022, 12:50:52 PM »

This is the output of PA1. Since the peak of 168 volts occurs where there are two harmonic peaks, if we estimate the real value is slightly lower at 160 volts, the power out would be about 256 watts or 512 watts for both PA1 and PA2 which is about right since the signal still has to pass through a combiner and then the low pass filter.



Plotted input vs output power at 1.85 MHz. In spite of all the non-linearity at the base emitters and collectors, the output power versus input power curve is pretty straight.



The curve starts to bend down around 530 watts output. The output power trip point to shut down the amplifier was set at 600 watts output which did happen.

This is the combined output of PA1 and PA2 at the output of the 2KL.



224 Vp into 50 ohms is P = [( 224/1.414 ) **2]/50 = 502 watts

The power needed to produce 500 watts was measured and the gain calculated as shown below.



Regarding the 10 M modification. Some 2KL’s like this one had the 10 M filter already installed but it is only accessible via the band select voltage supplied by an Icom transceiver. The 10 M low pass filter shown below is the only one using air coils instead of toroids.

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LZ1HD

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #79 on: January 29, 2022, 06:23:30 AM »

I would like to draw your attention to the output transformers of this amplifier. It has been used multi-aperture core in this 1:4 TLT. The strange thing, at least for me, is the number of turns - one half contains two, while the other five. The lengths of the two lines are naturally very different. I wonder what has been achieved with this design, as far as I can see Icom uses the same type of transformers in all its 200 Watt transceivers so far.
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HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #80 on: June 13, 2022, 02:20:49 PM »

The 2KL uses a rear panel 24 pin ACC connector for control via Icom transceivers. The Molex part number for the rear panel connector is 03061241. The mating connector is 03062242. Both parts have been discontinued by Molex for some time. W2ENY sold these or a 3D printed version but no longer. Recently this ad showed up on eBay.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/163170686633?hash=item25fdbb16a9:g:wbUAAOSwgcdcGmqH

I had some concerns these were not Molex parts but might be 3D printed versions as well given the name of the vendor is “partsmakr8585”. The parts I ordered showed up this week. They appear to be genuine Molex parts but not p/n 03062242 which is shown in the ad. Instead the part is 03062241 which adds the snap in panel mounting ears. The mounting ears do not cause any interference when connecting to the 2KL or the tuner, the AT-500, so I did not remove them.





The Molex name can be seen in the mounting tab. The number 1625 for the series  also appears on the opposite mounting tab.

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VR2AX

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #81 on: June 15, 2022, 10:42:57 AM »

Good info thanks for posting this. I still have my IC-751A (actually a '751AF' model) and quite a few accessories. Packed away somewhere. I vaguely remember the 24 pin connector has less actual connections in real use, didn't the band change work by sending different voltages (or voltage ranges) down the same line or pin?
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WB2VVV

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #82 on: July 29, 2022, 09:51:58 PM »

Great amplifier! Glad you're restoring it.

I had one back in the early 90s, and mine had 10m. Mine had a birdie or two that I occasionally heard in the transceiver. I felt the heat pipe cooling system was ahead of its time, and it was just so effortless when tied to my IC-751/R-71A. In the late 90s a friend really wanted it and offered to trade me his Commander HF-2500 for it, which I still enjoy...
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HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #83 on: July 31, 2022, 04:45:52 AM »

Almost hard to believe but this vendor claims to have over 33,000 used 2SC2652's in stock for $37.15 in unit quantities.

https://www.utsource.net/itm/p/1538707.html?digipart=1

Quote from: WB2VVV
In the late 90s a friend really wanted it and offered to trade me his Commander HF-2500 for it, which I still enjoy...

Both the 2KL and HF-2500 have five star ratings here on eham.

https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=227

https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-product?id=598

Sounds like a good trade.
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N8YX

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #84 on: August 04, 2022, 08:26:51 AM »

...didn't the band change work by sending different voltages (or voltage ranges) down the same line or pin?
Yes - it's a level-sense scheme.
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HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #85 on: August 16, 2022, 03:29:53 PM »

This is the IMD at 500 watts output at 3.6 MHz measured as described in this thread,

https://www.eham.net/community/smf/index.php/topic,136968.msg1271256.html#msg1271256

« Last Edit: August 16, 2022, 03:40:20 PM by HAMHOCK75 »
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HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #86 on: August 30, 2022, 02:34:32 PM »

Quote from: VR2AX
...didn't the band change work by sending different voltages (or voltage ranges) down the same line or pin?

The transceiver sends two voltages to the 2KL auto band select circuit via the 24 pin connector. One is a +8 VDC reference voltage which goes in pin 12. The band control voltage goes in pin 13. The actual band control voltages are shown below for reference.



The auto band select stopped working recently. The band select board was removed. Resistor R1, 470 ohms was found burnt but the value was correct.



The relay RL1 connects the +8V reference and band select voltage to the rest of the circuit. The top of the relay case pops off easily for cleaning.



After replacing R1 and cleaning RL1, the problem remained. The clue to the problem was that RL1 never switched at any time which led to the front panel rotary band select switch S1 which was the source of the problem. S1 is supposed to ground the relay coil in the “Auto” mode but the measured resistance to ground for S1 was around 17 kohms.

Spray cleaning S1 did not help so it was disassembled. There was a film formed over most of the contacts. The upper half of the brown wafer in the photo below still shows the brown residue.



With S1 apart, it looks like if the flute circled in red were removed and a new contact added to the wafer, S1 could select 10M from the front panel.
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HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #87 on: August 30, 2022, 05:35:18 PM »

An Icom 7100 was used to control the 2KL during the above repair. The 7100 would output the band select voltage immediately upon a band change with the 2KL following.

It was a bit annoying as this did not happen when operating FT8. The 7100 would only output the correct band select voltage when the WJST-X software was set to "Tune" or entered transmit mode. In other words, if the 7100 were on 15M, the band changed to 40M, the band select voltage for 40M did not appear until the 7100 started to transmit on 40M or was set to "Tune".

It turns out that this is caused by "split" mode in FT8. The 7100 will not output the correct band select voltage until the split actually occurs even if that split is just a kHz or so. If WSJT-X is set to not "split", then the 7100 and 2KL follow each other immediately when changing bands.
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W0BKR

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #88 on: December 09, 2022, 05:53:47 AM »

I found in my 2KL with the fault lite one when powered on, a pass transistor appears to have failed (no longer available in the configuration I need) so tested the amp side with another 2KL's PS and fault lite is OFF so the PS is bad. Will attempt to build or slide in a chinese version.
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HAMHOCK75

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Re: Icom IC-2KL restoration questions
« Reply #89 on: January 26, 2023, 02:49:07 PM »

To understand better why these class AB amplifiers stay linear even when the output is saturated, I created a simple Spice model for a single ended class B amplifier.



The images below show Vbe in green and Vce in red.

At low drive,



Near saturation,



In saturation,



The output voltage continues to increase even when the voltage is clamped going low by saturation.

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