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Author Topic: Cheating on online exam  (Read 952 times)

K3UIM

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Re: Cheating on online exam
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2021, 10:39:58 AM »

Carl,
"Free food also."
Maybe I can ...
<Hidden Text>Uh, no dear! I wasn't going to go help him.<End Text>
Never mind. :'(  ;D
C
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Charlie. K3UIM
Where you are: I was!
Where I am: You will be!
So be nice to us old fogies!!

N2EY

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Re: Cheating on online exam
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2021, 01:54:27 PM »

I have to confess that shortly after the code exam started I became frustrated and dropped my pencil ready to give up. That caused the guy beside me to stop printing, which made me realize that I was distracting the group.

At least you realized that this was distracting others, and stopped.

When I was testing for Extra, I had just finished passing the Advanced and Extra written tests and moved over to the area that was giving the Morse test. There were eight of us at the table, IIRC. One of the hams taking the test wanted to use a keyboard. This was his third time taking the 20 WPM test. So they brought out a computer or terminal with a keyboard. It was a bit annoying to everyone because, he was only getting ever couple of characters. So there were odd clicks and clacks. Finally, he gave a grunt and pushed the terminal to the side and grabbed a pencil. He fussed around through the rest of the test

None of this bothered me. I was nice and calm and didn't have any problems observing him, and copying at the same time. To me, he was just a bit of QRM. But I think it upset the rest of the hams being tested. While we were copying, I could see that the others at the table were having a hard time concentrating. In the end, I was the only one at the table that passed (100% copy). The other guys should have asked for a retest, without the other guy around.

Great story!

I had a rather different experience...

Back-when, the FCC Examiner was very explicit about the code tests. You got 5 minutes of code, and when the code stopped, you put your pencil DOWN. You did not go back and fix or fill in, and The Examiner would not ask you questions on your copy. It had to be legible to him. This was all spelled out in detail by The Examiner before the test started. You had to send, too, and all the FCC provided was a J-38 straight key and oscillator.

I went from Novice to Advanced in early summer 1968, at 14 years old, licensed for less than a year. 1968 was the summer before I entered high school. So how hard could the tests have really been back then?

The Advanced license arrived in due time, and I had full privileges for a few weeks until November 22, 1968, when the "incentive licensing" rules went into effect.

I was ready for the Extra by mid-1969, but the 2 years' experience requirement made me wait until that late summer day in 1970. On the first day when I could try the Extra, I was there at the FCC office well before the 8 AM start time, to be sure to get a spot.

The waiting room was pretty full that day, and at 16 years old I was the youngest one there by far.

Right at 8 AM The Examiner came into the waiting room and asked if anyone was there for 20 wpm code. Only my hand went up - I was the only one there for the Extra.

The Examiner motioned for me to follow him into the exam room, and left everyone else waiting.

For code testing there was a big table with chairs around it. The Examiner  unlocked a file cabinet, and took out paper, pencils, headphones, key, code machine, and paper tapes for the code machine, arranging them all on the table, and pointing to where I should sit.

The code machine they used in the Philly office was a small thing that used punched paper tape. It ran on batteries and had an oscillator built in. Speed was changed by changing the drive spindle for the paper tape.

The Examiner gave the standard speech about 5 minutes of code, 1 minute of correct consecutive legible copy, and putting your pencil DOWN after the code stopped. I'd done this twice before, but everyone got the standard speech, so no one could claim they didn't understand the procedure. To pass 20 wpm required 100 consecutive legible characters or more.

He asked "Ready?" I put on the phones and nodded.

He started the machine, and the code was loud and clear in the phones. I started copying in big block letters, getting every character. This was certainly easier than trying to copy CW NTS message traffic through summer QRN and QRM.

The Examiner watched me from across the table. Then he came around behind me, watching over my shoulder as I copied. Then he walked back around the table and looked at the code machine. All the while I was copying the code, trying to concentrate, trying not to miss any, and to make the copy legible. If I messed this up, it would be a long time before I could try again, because summer break would be over.

Then The Examiner shut the machine off! I looked up - only about 90 seconds had gone by - two minutes at most! Was I in trouble? What about the 5 minutes of code?

The Examiner then said "That was pretty easy, huh, kid?"

All I could manage was "I guess so...."

"It should be" he replied. "That was only 13 words per minute. Here's 20"

And he quickly produced another drive spindle and swapped it with the one in the machine. Then he restarted the machine, and the REAL test began. The code came much faster, and all I could do was write it down as best I could. That time I got the full five minutes, and when the code stopped, I put the pencil down and The Examiner took the paper.

After a few moments, he said "You passed".

Then it was sending on the J-38 at 20 per - no big deal; all I had at home then was a J-37 straight key anyway. Passed that, and then it was time for the written. During the written test, other hopefuls were allowed into the exam room.

I passed the written and went home to wait for the Extra license to arrive.

I will never know if The Examiner simply forgot to change the drive spindle that morning so long ago, or if he was trying to rattle me. Either way, I passed, and soon after started 11th grade.

I wasn't an unusual case; there were Advanceds and Extras much younger than me back then. Today there are Extras in elementary school, some whose ages aren't even double-digits yet.

It's been 51 years since that summer of 1970 when I earned the Extra - without some nice Elmer/mentor spoon feeding me, nor any formal radio training or handouts.

And yes, I could still pass all those tests today - or the current ones - with zero preparation. Nothing to it. Piece of cake. Bring 'em on!

73 de Jim, N2EY
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K3UIM

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Re: Cheating on online exam
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2021, 02:09:56 PM »

sigh
C
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Charlie. K3UIM
Where you are: I was!
Where I am: You will be!
So be nice to us old fogies!!

K6CPO

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Re: Cheating on online exam
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2021, 03:14:42 PM »

CPO: I'm not complaining, but just admitting that we who took the test at a federal testing point feel that we "went all the way" and feel offended by those who choose to cheat to get the same ham privileges. ("The Grasshopper and the Ant" come to mind.

I can't blame a cheater for protesting about those of us that struggled to get the ticket(s). It's the way those things go, if only to save face, but I can crawl in bed each night knowing I did the job well enough to earn the call letters and I don't have to worry about someone, somewhere possible knowing the cheating truth.

I'm proud to be called a ham radio operator, but can they say that too? (I sincerely doubt it.)

Charlie

Your language here is right on the borderline of insinuating that I cheated to get my license.  I surely hope this wasn't what you meant because I did all the necessary studying and took the exams at a normal session completly within the rules back in 2011.
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K6CPO

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Re: Cheating on online exam
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2021, 03:28:47 PM »

So, all the old-timers took this "Cheating on online exam" topic as a reason to launch into another "I had to walk 100 miles uphill both ways in the middle of winter to get to the FCC office to take my exam" discussion?  Seriously?  You should, by this time, realize that constantly bitching about how "hard" you had it does nothing to impress those of us that were licensed more recently. We're really tired of it...

There's a HUGE difference between "this is how it was back-when" and "oh we had it SO hard".

Sometimes that difference is lost in translation.

---

I became a ham in 1967 at the age of 13. Ham radio was a lot different then, and I could tell you stories of how much harder the license tests were, how crude and expensive the equipment was, yada yada yada.....

But lots of others do that. So instead I'll tell you the dirty little secret of us OTs: In at least some ways, we had it a lot easier than today. At least, it was that way in the mid-1960s, when I got started, and it extends back to at least the 1950s.

Here's why:

- In 1967, most new US hams got started as Novices, because the license was the easiest to get.

But the 1967 Novice license was only good for two years and you only got one of them. So most Novices didn't get a license until they were ready to use it. The usual path was to get an HF receiver first, and string up some sort of wire antenna so as to hear other hams and learn the code. Theory and regs came from books and magazines. End result was that, by the time a newcomer took the license tests, they already had two-thirds of a station, and had at least some experience with the ham bands.

The 1967 Novice only allowed CW operation on parts of 80, 40 and 15 meters. There were some 2 meter privileges too, but in those pre-repeater days most newcomers stuck to HF. Power limit was 75 watts input and the transmitter had to be crystal controlled. And the Novice band segments weren't harmonically related, so you needed a crystal for each frequency.

New equipment was expensive. Even a basic setup like the Heath HR-10B/DX-60B would set you back $160, and they were kits that had to be assembled. ($160 then inflates to about $1000 today). The Drake 2C/2NT combo cost about double that.

So the typical Novice usually started out with used gear, or scrimped and saved to buy basic new gear. Also, many of us converted WW2 surplus (which was pretty cheap and readily available, both by mail and in stores in larger cities, as well as from other hams) or built our own stuff. No old TV set or AM BC set was safe in a ham's neighborhood, either; they were cannibalized for parts - and they had a LOT of usable parts.

The equipment was really basic, and performed poorly by today's standards. But what this did was to make us learn operating skills and to really understand the meaning of words like "sensitivity", "selectivity", "tuning rate", etc. It also meant we could build, fix and modify our own stuff pretty easily. And it worked well enough to make a few contacts, which was all that mattered.

Because the Novice privileges were so limited, most of us settled on one or two bands (typically 80/40) and so things like antenna choice were simple. A basic dipole or random end-fed wire would do the trick. Most typical Novice transmitters had output circuits that could match such antennas, so we didn't worry too much about SWR or "antenna tuners". Nobody had ever heard of a G5RV.

Nobody had ever heard of an HOA or CC&R, either. Not involving antennas, anyway. Everyone was used to seeing TV and radio antennas on homes - in fact, a big TV antenna was actually a status symbol, because it meant you had color TV! The only antenna issues were space, money and high supports.

You could get a lot of stuff locally, too. Around here. there were Lafayette, Radio Shack, and RESCO stores that carried all sorts of goodies. Your local hardware store (every town had one) had antenna wire, insulators, rope, etc.

Radio stuff cost so much that equipment choice was limited to what you could afford - which usually wasn't all that much. Made it easy to choose! Yet, the oldest gear typically seen by us was WW2 surplus, which was only 25 years old. Most ham gear then was even newer - a 1950s rx or tx was only 10-15 years old.

Using separate receivers and transmitters was complicated, but it also made improvements easy. Once the General or Advanced was earned, it was a pretty simple thing to get a VFO and move out of the Novice subbands. Improvements were made gradually - a better receiver one year, a higher-powered transmitter the next, an improved antenna over the summer. Getting a bug or a keyer was a really big deal - I still have and use my 1974 vintage Original Standard. Seven years on a straight key taught me to appreciate it.

There were books like "Understanding Amateur Radio" and "How To Become A Radio Amateur" that focused on what the new ham had to know. Such books could focus on a few subjects in depth, because the Novice license didn't allow much else anyway.

The ham mags and books of those days were full of articles that practically leapt off the page and screamed "BUILD ME!!!" at you. These were articles about receivers and transmitters, not just accessories and little doo-dads. Whether you built them or not, they gave you an idea of how radio worked, right down to the bolt-and-nut level.

There were lots of kits, too. Not just Heathkit but Knight (Allied), Eico, Johnson, and others. Hands-on experience!

The end result was that a lot of learning went on without us really knowing it. The few choices meant we learned the basics really well. The "Novice bands" were usually busy, both with newcomers and old-timers helping out.

----

Today, a new ham has a very wide choice of rigs, bands, modes, antennas, and accessories. How to choose? That new rig may do 160 through 6, but what antenna do you put up? And what if it stops working?

73 de Jim, N2EY

You're not telling me anything I don't already know.  Don't assume that because I've only been licensed for 10 years, I'm not aware of how it was.  I'm probably as old, if not older than most of you.  In in 1965, I was a senior in high school, studying, among other things, electronics and I had a SWL station set up in my bedroom.  I had every intention of going for my ham license back then, but there were a number of factor involved, the most important of which was graduating.  After graduation, we relocated and shortly thereafter I enlisted in the Navy Reserve.  Fast forward a couple of years and I'm on active duty and headed for Vietnam.  When I returned, more life got in the way in the form of college, marriage, career and amateur radio was pretty much forgotten about.  In 2011, after retiring, I decided to try getting back into it and the biggest incentive was the removal of the Morse code requirement. 

There are some aspects of amateur radio I wash were still around.  I love building things and I would love it if I could afford to buy an unassembled Heathkit, but they are extremely rare and command a premium price. I miss the Radio Shack stores of the 1960s and 70s, before they sold out to the cell phone craze.

I'm enjoying the hobby and will continue to do so.  If it ever stops being fun, I'll give it up.
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K3UIM

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Re: Cheating on online exam
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2021, 04:28:36 PM »

CPO: I'm not complaining, but just admitting that we who took the test at a federal testing point feel that we "went all the way" and feel offended by those who choose to cheat to get the same ham privileges. ("The Grasshopper and the Ant" come to mind.

I can't blame a cheater for protesting about those of us that struggled to get the ticket(s). It's the way those things go, if only to save face, but I can crawl in bed each night knowing I did the job well enough to earn the call letters and I don't have to worry about someone, somewhere possible knowing the cheating truth.

I'm proud to be called a ham radio operator, but can they say that too? (I sincerely doubt it.)

Charlie

Your language here is right on the borderline of insinuating that I cheated to get my license.  I surely hope this wasn't what you meant because I did all the necessary studying and took the exams at a normal session completly within the rules back in 2011.
Good Heavens, John! No, I'm not insinuating that!! I'm speaking of those that actually cheated to get their ticket. I certainly didn't mean to say that all who didn't go to a testing office cheated! Heck! I gave three locals their test for the "Conditional" license so that would make me the chief cheater. I'm sorry if you thought that was what I was insinuating. No!

Charlie
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Charlie. K3UIM
Where you are: I was!
Where I am: You will be!
So be nice to us old fogies!!

KM1H

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Re: Cheating on online exam
« Reply #36 on: July 17, 2021, 05:08:15 PM »

sigh
C

Ditto  ;D

Canned and saved for perpetual posting
« Last Edit: July 17, 2021, 05:15:20 PM by KM1H »
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K3UIM

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Re: Cheating on online exam
« Reply #37 on: July 17, 2021, 06:38:57 PM »

Smart aleck, teen age brat! ;D
C
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Charlie. K3UIM
Where you are: I was!
Where I am: You will be!
So be nice to us old fogies!!

W9FIB

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Re: Cheating on online exam
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2021, 01:29:37 AM »

I had an electronics engineer that became a teacher when I went to Tech Collage. He used the philosophy that it was more important to know where and how to find the needed information then memorizing a bunch of answers. His tests were probably some of the toughest because you had to find the answer, not regurgitate it from memory which you would soon forget anyway. The skills he taught remained with me.

The only problem with that was sometimes the needed information was written at a level above my knowledge. Then I would need to research what the information was actually saying. But that in itself was a tool to learning new things. The deeper you dive into a topic and work to understand it, the more you end up actually knowing and using.

With that said, the system of testing the way it is set up is too easy to cheat if you are not monitored like in an exam session. It is way too easy to look up the question and answer from the question pool and put down the right answer. That is why by human nature some cheat because we made it easy to cheat.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

K6CPO

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Re: Cheating on online exam
« Reply #39 on: July 18, 2021, 12:29:39 PM »

CPO: I'm not complaining, but just admitting that we who took the test at a federal testing point feel that we "went all the way" and feel offended by those who choose to cheat to get the same ham privileges. ("The Grasshopper and the Ant" come to mind.

I can't blame a cheater for protesting about those of us that struggled to get the ticket(s). It's the way those things go, if only to save face, but I can crawl in bed each night knowing I did the job well enough to earn the call letters and I don't have to worry about someone, somewhere possible knowing the cheating truth.

I'm proud to be called a ham radio operator, but can they say that too? (I sincerely doubt it.)

Charlie

Your language here is right on the borderline of insinuating that I cheated to get my license.  I surely hope this wasn't what you meant because I did all the necessary studying and took the exams at a normal session completly within the rules back in 2011.
Good Heavens, John! No, I'm not insinuating that!! I'm speaking of those that actually cheated to get their ticket. I certainly didn't mean to say that all who didn't go to a testing office cheated! Heck! I gave three locals their test for the "Conditional" license so that would make me the chief cheater. I'm sorry if you thought that was what I was insinuating. No!

Charlie

OK.  I wasn't sure because inflections don't come across in text.  Thanks for clearing it up.  We're good...
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N2EY

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Re: Cheating on online exam
« Reply #40 on: July 18, 2021, 02:28:53 PM »

Smart aleck, teen age brat! ;D
C

Who are you referring to?
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N2EY

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Re: Cheating on online exam
« Reply #41 on: July 19, 2021, 06:43:13 AM »

So, all the old-timers took this "Cheating on online exam" topic as a reason to launch into another "I had to walk 100 miles uphill both ways in the middle of winter to get to the FCC office to take my exam" discussion?  Seriously?  You should, by this time, realize that constantly bitching about how "hard" you had it does nothing to impress those of us that were licensed more recently. We're really tired of it...

There's a HUGE difference between "this is how it was back-when" and "oh we had it SO hard".

Sometimes that difference is lost in translation.

---

I became a ham in 1967 at the age of 13. Ham radio was a lot different then, and I could tell you stories of how much harder the license tests were, how crude and expensive the equipment was, yada yada yada.....

But lots of others do that. So instead I'll tell you the dirty little secret of us OTs: In at least some ways, we had it a lot easier than today. At least, it was that way in the mid-1960s, when I got started, and it extends back to at least the 1950s.

Here's why:

- In 1967, most new US hams got started as Novices, because the license was the easiest to get.

But the 1967 Novice license was only good for two years and you only got one of them. So most Novices didn't get a license until they were ready to use it. The usual path was to get an HF receiver first, and string up some sort of wire antenna so as to hear other hams and learn the code. Theory and regs came from books and magazines. End result was that, by the time a newcomer took the license tests, they already had two-thirds of a station, and had at least some experience with the ham bands.

The 1967 Novice only allowed CW operation on parts of 80, 40 and 15 meters. There were some 2 meter privileges too, but in those pre-repeater days most newcomers stuck to HF. Power limit was 75 watts input and the transmitter had to be crystal controlled. And the Novice band segments weren't harmonically related, so you needed a crystal for each frequency.

New equipment was expensive. Even a basic setup like the Heath HR-10B/DX-60B would set you back $160, and they were kits that had to be assembled. ($160 then inflates to about $1000 today). The Drake 2C/2NT combo cost about double that.

So the typical Novice usually started out with used gear, or scrimped and saved to buy basic new gear. Also, many of us converted WW2 surplus (which was pretty cheap and readily available, both by mail and in stores in larger cities, as well as from other hams) or built our own stuff. No old TV set or AM BC set was safe in a ham's neighborhood, either; they were cannibalized for parts - and they had a LOT of usable parts.

The equipment was really basic, and performed poorly by today's standards. But what this did was to make us learn operating skills and to really understand the meaning of words like "sensitivity", "selectivity", "tuning rate", etc. It also meant we could build, fix and modify our own stuff pretty easily. And it worked well enough to make a few contacts, which was all that mattered.

Because the Novice privileges were so limited, most of us settled on one or two bands (typically 80/40) and so things like antenna choice were simple. A basic dipole or random end-fed wire would do the trick. Most typical Novice transmitters had output circuits that could match such antennas, so we didn't worry too much about SWR or "antenna tuners". Nobody had ever heard of a G5RV.

Nobody had ever heard of an HOA or CC&R, either. Not involving antennas, anyway. Everyone was used to seeing TV and radio antennas on homes - in fact, a big TV antenna was actually a status symbol, because it meant you had color TV! The only antenna issues were space, money and high supports.

You could get a lot of stuff locally, too. Around here. there were Lafayette, Radio Shack, and RESCO stores that carried all sorts of goodies. Your local hardware store (every town had one) had antenna wire, insulators, rope, etc.

Radio stuff cost so much that equipment choice was limited to what you could afford - which usually wasn't all that much. Made it easy to choose! Yet, the oldest gear typically seen by us was WW2 surplus, which was only 25 years old. Most ham gear then was even newer - a 1950s rx or tx was only 10-15 years old.

Using separate receivers and transmitters was complicated, but it also made improvements easy. Once the General or Advanced was earned, it was a pretty simple thing to get a VFO and move out of the Novice subbands. Improvements were made gradually - a better receiver one year, a higher-powered transmitter the next, an improved antenna over the summer. Getting a bug or a keyer was a really big deal - I still have and use my 1974 vintage Original Standard. Seven years on a straight key taught me to appreciate it.

There were books like "Understanding Amateur Radio" and "How To Become A Radio Amateur" that focused on what the new ham had to know. Such books could focus on a few subjects in depth, because the Novice license didn't allow much else anyway.

The ham mags and books of those days were full of articles that practically leapt off the page and screamed "BUILD ME!!!" at you. These were articles about receivers and transmitters, not just accessories and little doo-dads. Whether you built them or not, they gave you an idea of how radio worked, right down to the bolt-and-nut level.

There were lots of kits, too. Not just Heathkit but Knight (Allied), Eico, Johnson, and others. Hands-on experience!

The end result was that a lot of learning went on without us really knowing it. The few choices meant we learned the basics really well. The "Novice bands" were usually busy, both with newcomers and old-timers helping out.

----

Today, a new ham has a very wide choice of rigs, bands, modes, antennas, and accessories. How to choose? That new rig may do 160 through 6, but what antenna do you put up? And what if it stops working?

73 de Jim, N2EY

You're not telling me anything I don't already know.  Don't assume that because I've only been licensed for 10 years, I'm not aware of how it was.  I'm probably as old, if not older than most of you.

Maybe. But you wrote what you wrote as if you weren't aware.

And I'm afraid you missed my point entirely which was this: The old-timers who whine about how HARD it was usually don't mention that in many ways it was easier.

In in 1965, I was a senior in high school, studying, among other things, electronics and I had a SWL station set up in my bedroom.  I had every intention of going for my ham license back then, but there were a number of factor involved, the most important of which was graduating.  After graduation, we relocated and shortly thereafter I enlisted in the Navy Reserve.  Fast forward a couple of years and I'm on active duty and headed for Vietnam.  When I returned, more life got in the way in the form of college, marriage, career and amateur radio was pretty much forgotten about.  In 2011, after retiring, I decided to try getting back into it and the biggest incentive was the removal of the Morse code requirement. 

Welcome back!

There are some aspects of amateur radio I wash were still around.  I love building things and I would love it if I could afford to buy an unassembled Heathkit, but they are extremely rare and command a premium price. I miss the Radio Shack stores of the 1960s and 70s, before they sold out to the cell phone craze.

Heathkit (and others such as Eico) died because technology changed so much.

If you do find an unassembled kit out there and decide to build it, be sure to test all the parts before starting and replace any that aren't good. The electrolytic capacitors are almost certainly bad, and the carbon composition resistors may have drifted high.

What some folks do is buy old Heathkits, take them all apart, clean them up, replace any bad parts, and rebuild.

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K3UIM

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Re: Cheating on online exam
« Reply #42 on: July 19, 2021, 07:13:44 AM »

Smart aleck, teen age brat! ;D
C

Who are you referring to?
At 87 years of age, that could mean almost everyone! Woo-Haw!! ;D ;D
On Edit: "And I'm afraid you missed my point entirely which was this: The old-timers who whine about how HARD it was usually don't mention that in many ways it was easier."
Now you tell me! I wish you had been there, in the early 60's when I took the test, to encourage me.  ;D
The easiest part for me was finding the "problem" on the receiver schematic. (I think it was a missing coupling cond capacitor. Too long ago.)

"Fossilizing as we speak" Charlie
« Last Edit: July 19, 2021, 07:29:36 AM by K3UIM »
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Charlie. K3UIM
Where you are: I was!
Where I am: You will be!
So be nice to us old fogies!!

KM1H

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Re: Cheating on online exam
« Reply #43 on: July 19, 2021, 10:22:12 AM »

There are lots of kit choices in the QRP world Charlie.
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K3UIM

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Re: Cheating on online exam
« Reply #44 on: July 19, 2021, 10:40:16 AM »

That's a fact, Carl, but the first full check I received as a journeyman T&D I handed to the XYL and told her that from now on she was our Financial Officer.  ;D ( Smartest thing I've done so far!!)
Consequently, I must survive on the mere pittance she doles out occasionally. :'( ::) ;D
I have gotten quite a few kits already and love each smidgen of solder I've used on them. Close to a dozen 40 meter receivers, several of which I've donated to worthy recipients. (Hams, or hams-to-be)
Charlie
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Charlie. K3UIM
Where you are: I was!
Where I am: You will be!
So be nice to us old fogies!!
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