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Author Topic: DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?  (Read 661 times)

KT0DD

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DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?
« on: July 21, 2021, 02:58:38 AM »

Hi, I am shopping for a new rig. I am familiar with Icom's DSP and find it excellent. However, for other reasons(ability to connect an external display - less kludgy on the 590SG than 7300, and offered option on the FTDX10), I am looking at the Kenwood TS590SG and the new Yaesu FTDX10. DSP is important to me I am wondering which one works better between these two rigs? I can't afford another 7610 or I'd buy one.
Any constructive observations is appreciated.

Todd - KT0DD
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KX2T

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Re: DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2021, 05:18:30 AM »

First off I have never owned the SG model but back around 2010 I owned a 590S, the NR was what I would call sub par but if you never experienced anything else I guess it would pass but clearly those under water artifacts were there regardless of setting plus the front end on 40 would get overloaded by broadcast station when the band really opened up. At that time I had a pair of phased verticals for 40  and living on the east coast they worked really well into EU. Replace that radio with a FTDX3000 which had better NR but back around 2006 I had owned a  746Pro and there NR worked dam well. Fast Forward to 2017, I bought a backup rig yup joined the 7300 crew and there NR worked better but got the itch when the 7610 came out and had to have it but as some here have had the display board had to be replaced more than once so had a backup again, yes the 7300.
When Yaesu came out with the FTDX10 I really wanted to give them a try so I sold the 7300 and bought one, its RX section is very good, I know the lab numbers talk volume but between the two on average antennas there about the same. Now lets talk about the NR, at first I though it had that slight under water sound but I started to play with it, like the Icom if you engage it you should raise the volume a tad but it seems almost like a squelch control, then I started at the lower setting 1 then 2 then 3 depending on the band and noise plus used the contour control on its positive side as to boost the audio around 1200Hz which seems to give a happy medium. This seem to work much better during the summertime but if I don't need it I turn it off but I feel it now does make a difference but its not like the Icom which can take allot of the band noise out and you can leave it on all the time.
The NB is almost the same leave the NB menu setting at there default and only use the first setting #1 anything greater then it sounds liike the IF strip gets swamped, I feel Yaesu could use a little more work on both the NB and NR, upgrading there performance would really make this under $2 kilowbuck rig shine.
The scope on the Ten does not have averaging, this would be nice but since Yaesu has not really been into the scope front panel display market that long this may take some time, if you like real time it ok but the Icom's do it better but the performance of the RX section really makes this radio shine, its that good, if I had to cut my radio budget and down size the Ten would stay, they have full front panel screen mouse control, you don't have easy band buttons like the 7610 but can enter another bands frequency and go but gotta change the mode as well between USB and LSB but mostly it does more than Icom does.
I hope this helps but to be honest the SG is a good radio but the FTDX10 is allot more bang for the buck plus a competition grade RX which equals or even spanks the  the overrated K3s plus has superb audio on both RX and TX over the K3 series rigs. I still like my 7610 its just a tad better all the way around, slightly more refined in every way but they bother are IMO great radio's. Your mileage may vary.
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K4FMH

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Re: DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2021, 05:25:32 AM »

Hi, I am shopping for a new rig. I am familiar with Icom's DSP and find it excellent. However, for other reasons(ability to connect an external display - less kludgy on the 590SG than 7300, and offered option on the FTDX10), I am looking at the Kenwood TS590SG and the new Yaesu FTDX10. DSP is important to me I am wondering which one works better between these two rigs? I can't afford another 7610 or I'd buy one.
Any constructive observations is appreciated.

Todd - KT0DD

Hi Todd,

Great Q! DSP is important to me, too. Let me suggest you at least consider a Capt Kirk alternative to get what you want by changing the Q slightly. Would you be willing to look at an external dsp?

The respective performance and feature set (eg waveform display in the Yaesu) will no doubt be compelling aspects to your eventual rig satisfaction. So why not make your choice on that basis and choose an external dsp in your Rx audio chain? BHI and Sotabeams, for instance, offer leading dsp devices. I have not directly use the Wolf device by Sotabeams but I have used several BHI devices over the past several years with great satisfaction.

Good luck in your search!

73,

Frank
K4FMH
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KX3DX

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Re: DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2021, 06:35:27 AM »

I have had for long periods of time, a FTdx3000, IC7300, TS590 and now a FTdx10.  The DNR on the Yaesu's us definitely superior to the 7300 and 590.  But it also has to do with what you expect.  The Yaesu's don't get watery untill very high settings.  The Icom and Kenwood get watery at very low settings.  I like to just take the edge off the noise.  I sold off the 3000 and 7300 and only have the 590 and the 10 now.  Both provide good noise reduction at low settings....1 or 2.  At higher settings above say 4 or 5, the 10 is way better.  If you want more of an FM like experience the Yaesu is the way to go.  On CW, again, the Yaesu is better but the Kenwood is very good.  Btw....I'm a Kenwood fanboy...but right now the FTdx10 is my main rig.  It's so hard to admit that!

Dave
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K7JQ

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Re: DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2021, 08:30:29 AM »

I don't have experience with the Ts-590SG or the FTDX-10, but here's my noise experience:

In my HOA antenna restricted situation, I use attic dipoles and a screwdriver antenna mounted close to the house. Lots of noise from my and my neighbor's hash-emitting electronics. I found the NR DSP on my IC-7300 to be much improved over my previous IC-7600, but still muffled the audio as I increased the NR level to reduce the noise.

Years ago, I had an Am-Com ClearSpeech DSP speaker in a mobile setup, and was amazed how it virtually cut out the noise. Based on that, I decided to try the CLRdsp ClearSpeech box (new version, with continuously variable DSP filter, tone and volume controls), now manufactured by West Mountain Radio. Used in tandem with the 7300's NR at #3, I find the combination to be much more effective to take out up to 90% of the noise, without the "underwater" artifacts on the audio. Even at the CLRdsp's maximum setting. Signals pop out of the noise, greatly reducing listening fatigue on SSB and CW. Understand, you can still hear the signals without NR engaged, but the CLRdsp makes them more intelligible, without the background noise level woosh/hiss.

I keep reading that people are dissatisfied with the NR circuits on even the latest, most expensive high-end radios, SDR or analog. The CLRdsp works for me. They're not cheap at $220, but if you can find one used for less, you might be pleasantly surprised with its performance. Check out the WMR website...they have audio recordings that accurately reproduce the effects.

Bob K7JQ
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WA9FZB

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Re: DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2021, 03:01:17 PM »

While I have no experience with the Icom products, I have had both the TS-590S and the later TS-590SG over the past 11 years.  When I see others panning the Kenwood's DSP noise reduction, I never see them refer to the fact that the Kenwood actually has two different noise reduction systems, strangely dubbed NR1 and NR2.  (Kind of sounds like Dr. Spock. . . Thing 1 and Thing 2?)  Bear in mind that I live in a residential city environment, with a ground-mounted vertical, so my station is probably a noise-magnet.

I have noted that the NR systems on the 590SG seem to be a bit more advanced than the similarly named tools on the 590S.  I also note that NR1 and NR2 are vastly different.  NR1 never gives any "under-water" effect, while NR2 does when it is set anywhere above 5 of 10.  That, to me, is fact.  I have no problem with it, though.

Most of the time I only need to use NR1, set to level 8, 9, or 10.  I do not note any warble artifacts with NR1 at all, and the noise reduction is VERY effective.  If noise is really bad at the time, I do sometimes use NR2, set to 7 or 8.  Some loss of audio level on SSB, but still intelligible.  With NR2 on CW, the situation is the opposite.  There doesn't seem to be any warble, but the attack time at the start of each dit or dah seems sharper, making it easier to discern characters in high noise situations.

I agree that the perceived quality of the noise reduction tools on modern rigs depends upon what you expect from them.  I do not agree, though, that somebody else's experience can adequately tell me how something will work for me.  I really think that the 590SG is an excellent rig, near bullet-proof, and with excellent ergonomics.  True, it lacks the eye-candy of the newer rigs with band scopes and all, but when you've grown up (nearly 60 years as a ham) without having to run your rig from a computer screen, the straight-forward user controls of the Kenwood feel mighty good.
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K7JQ

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Re: DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2021, 03:50:11 PM »


I agree that the perceived quality of the noise reduction tools on modern rigs depends upon what you expect from them.  I do not agree, though, that somebody else's experience can adequately tell me how something will work for me.

True. The effectiveness of a NR feature is strictly in the ear of the beholder...how one perceives the quality of the received signal vs the amount/type of noise removed. Every radio or outboard accessory has its own DSP algorithms, and the time it takes the circuit to sample the noise to reduce it. Could be anywhere from one to ten seconds. One person might think a NR circuit is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and another would be very disappointed with it. None of them are perfect, removing 100% of the noise without some type of artifacts or muffling injected. The idea is to reduce listening fatigue and increase intelligibility, with as little background noise as possible. The adjustments are a balancing act.

Your best bet is to try to sample the NR in those two radios at a local ham's shack or a radio store, if NR is a major factor in your decision.
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KX2T

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Re: DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2021, 07:01:31 AM »

I keep on trying different setting on the FTDX10 both on NB and NR, on NR setting it at position 1 and then taking the contour to +10, and position wide then setting the center at 1200Hz +- 100Hz seem to work best for me. The contour post right around the 1200Hz mark and produces better voice intelligibility without the under water hollow effect being present. On the NB again position 1 and in the NB menu's just leave them at the factory defaults which seem to have the least effect on the IF chain as far as that tell tail IF bleed threw with most NB circuits. I came up with these setting after spending a solid month playing with the Ten during the summer months here in SW Florida which we have lots of lightning static, the NR doesn't take out the very big strong crashes but it does make them more tolerable plus the excessive band noise during this time of year it bring down to an acceptable level, it makes the TEN a great radio to use during summer months. Your mileage may vary but after playing with this radio since December these seem to be the best setting I have come up with that work for me. The Yaesu's NR seems to act like a noise reducing squelch almost and it makes summer operating on the lower bands more pleasurable. 
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K7JQ

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Re: DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2021, 04:45:16 PM »

KT0DD,

Well, it's been a week since your question was posted, and you've received seven responses from five individuals. Some of them quite lengthy and detailed. Since people took the time and effort to give you some advice/input, don't you think it's proper to at least acknowledge that you read these, whether it helped you or not? No "thanks" expected...just maybe a little courtesy?

Bob K7JQ
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SWMAN

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Re: DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2021, 07:43:19 PM »

JQ,
You were thinking the same as me, well said.
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K7JQ

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Re: DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2021, 07:24:03 AM »

JQ,
You were thinking the same as me, well said.

Yeah, it's somewhat frustrating when you have something to contribute in helping someone with a problem or question, and he doesn't have the decency/courtesy to respond in kind to at least let you know that your time and effort wasn't wasted. The fly-by "one and done" poster is all too prevalent these days. Next time, I'll take note, and let them fend for themselves ;).
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K0UA

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Re: DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2021, 11:00:39 AM »

Yes, I know.  It is disappointing, but I don't have a remedy for that. I had no "skin in the game" on this one, as I had no insight on either rig, but I do feel for the ones that took the time to respond and got no feedback. But it is not just here either. I frequent a certain tractor/rural living oriented forum and it is often the same over their.  (shrugs shoulders)
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73  James K0UA

K7JQ

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Re: DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2021, 11:59:38 AM »

Yes, I know.  It is disappointing, but I don't have a remedy for that. I had no "skin in the game" on this one, as I had no insight on either rig, but I do feel for the ones that took the time to respond and got no feedback. But it is not just here either. I frequent a certain tractor/rural living oriented forum and it is often the same over their.  (shrugs shoulders)

I haven't had experience with either radio also. But with many folks expressing disappointment with the DSP NR on even the most expensive radios, I suggested maybe looking into an outboard DSP unit, expressing my favorable experience with one for my IC-7300's. Others did post their experiences with the radios he was considering.

I guess that's the way it is these days with the easy accessibility of the internet. Just not the way I was brought up. Maybe I expect too much. Gettin' old ::)
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K0UA

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Re: DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2021, 12:50:17 PM »

Quote
Maybe I expect too much. Gettin' old

Well, we all are.  At least those of us still on the upper side of the grass... :)
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73  James K0UA

KX3DX

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Re: DSP NR between the Kenwood TS590SG and FTDX 10?
« Reply #14 on: July 31, 2021, 01:52:07 PM »

One more thought after playing with both the TS-590 and FTdx-10 this afternoon...the DNR on the FTdx-10 seems to make SSB voice signals "come up out of the noise" vs the DNR on the TS-590 seems to just decrease the noise around the voice signal.  Hard to explain.  My advice, head over to an HRO and play with both radios...

Dave
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