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Author Topic: List of radios with silent QSK  (Read 1303 times)

W9AC

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Re: List of radios with silent QSK
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2021, 01:35:21 PM »

Group 1: Unconditionally Silent QSK
Radios in Group 1 don’t use any electro-mechanical components for any T/R switching functions. In that respect their T/R switching will always be silent because they contain nothing that could make a noise.

RGO ONE (?) - confirmation needed

Confirmed.

Quote
Group 3: Quiet QSK
Radios in Group 3 have at least one T/R relay that cannot be disabled. But radios only belong to Group 3 if all such relays are very quiet ‑ such that they would not normally be heard without deliberately listening to them.

IC-7610 (?) - confirmation needed

Confirmed.

Paul, W9AC
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G4IKZ

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Re: List of radios with silent QSK
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2021, 12:36:55 AM »

Updated list below.

QSK List: Version #2
The list below groups radios by T/R switching technology. In this context I define ‘T/R switching’ to include all circuit switching that occurs at the transmit>receive and receive>transmit transitions ‑ not just the antenna changeover switch.  Thus it includes any T/R switching for control of peripherals such as amplifiers. I acknowledge that all such switching is just one aspect of the QSK topic. If anybody disagrees with the groupings, or can confirm any, or can tell me which group any other radios belong to then please let me know. Any TS-890S experts out there?

Group 1: Unconditionally Silent QSK
Group 1 radios don’t use any electro-mechanical components for any T/R switching functions. In that respect their T/R switching will always be silent because they contain nothing that could make a noise.
Elecraft K3   (Thread ‘New Icom 7300 on CW’ at QRZ.com claims of K3 and KX3 ‘both SILENT on Full Break-in).
Elecraft KX3   (Thread ‘New Icom 7300 on CW’ at QRZ.com claims of K3 and KX3 ‘both SILENT on Full Break-in).    (
Elecraft K4    (Claimed in product brochure ‑ confirmation needed).
RGO ONE    (Confirmed by W9AC in this thread).

Group 2: Conditionally Silent QSK
T/R switching of Group 2 radios might not be silent under all circumstances. But there is at least one operating condition where they can be. This group could (for example) include radios whose only T/R relay is used for controlling an external amplifier, but only if all such relays can be disabled, either via hardware link or configuration menu. Radios in this group are fundamentally different to those in Group 1, but that doesn’t necessarily make them ‘inferior’ to those in Group 1.  A  Group 2 radio with the option to use either a transistor or a relay to control an amplifier is actually more flexible than a Group 1 radio that has no relay option. In that case the Group 2 radio is only inferior (from the QSK viewpoint) if that relay cannot be disabled.
[No radios yet identified].

Group 3: Very Quiet QSK
Group 3 radios have at least one T/R relay that cannot be disabled. Radios only belong to Group 3 if all such relays are very quiet ‑ such that they would not normally be heard without deliberately listening to them.
IC-7610    (Confirmed by W9AC in this thread).

Group 4: Clearly Audible QSK
Group 4 radios have at least one T/R relay that cannot be disabled. Radios only belong to Group 4 if at least one such relay is clearly audible without special effort.
FTDX10   (Thread ‘Based on the price of radios ftdx10 is a game changer?’ at groups.io claims ‘CW performance is great, the only down side is the relay noise, it is very audible during QSK without headphones’).
FTDX101   (Thread ‘FTDX101MP QSK OPERATION’ at groups.io refers to ‘clank clank’).
FTDX101   (Thread ‘FTDX101 vs TS890’ at QRZ.com claims ‘Yaesu uses relays that clatter’).
FT-450D   (Review #9529 at eham.net claims ‘the relay is too noisy for QSK’).
IC-705      (Article ‘Comparing the Lab599 Discovery TX-500 and the Icom IC-705’ at qrper.com claims that ‘both the TX-500 and IC-705 use relays, not pin diode switching, so you can hear relays clicking inside the radio’).
IC-7300   (Video at YouTube shows how to quieten the relay with putty).
IC-7300   (Thread ‘at QRZ.com refers to ‘the relay clacking LOUDLY when using CW Full Break-in).

Group 5: Full QSK Not Supported
Group 5 radios don’t provide full QSK ‑ i.e. full break-in CW.
Lab599 TX-500   (Article ‘Comparing the Lab599 Discovery TX-500 and the Icom IC-705’ at qrper.com claims that ‘TX-500 doesn’t have full break-in QSK like the IC-705. The TX-500 has at minimum a 100ms recovery time after keying a character).
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G4AON

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Re: List of radios with silent QSK
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2021, 02:48:43 AM »

I've just finished testing a few radios for their ability to run QSK or full break-in.

The test setup is a power attenuator feeding an oscilloscope and a signal generator. Band was 20m. The radios were tested using a 5 KHz split (VFO A/B arrangement) or in the case of the K1 using IRT. The latter simulates calling a DX station on split, probably the most likely scenario for casual operators. The internal keyer in the radio was used with paddles in iambic mode B. The K3 has a dedicated QSK setting, there is no sign of a difference between that and setting delay to zero.

None of the radios tested show any shortening of the first charactor, nor any significant variation in character spacing or dot duration, at any speed up to 48/50 wpm.

All the radios could receive between characters at the max keying speed of 48/50 wpm. The Elecraft radios could hear between a continuous string of dots only to about 12 to 15 wpm. The Icom IC-7300 can hear between dots to a surprising 20 to 25 wpm.

"Hearing between dots" is quite subjective, it's more a case of detecting a "click" than hearing a distinctive tone. All the radios could hear clearly a tone between characters at the maximum internal keyer speed.

The radios tested were an Elecraft K3 with the later "K3S" synth boards, a K1, K2 and KX3, and an Icom IC-7300.

Relay noise was a minor issue with the IC-7300, not really a problem with headphones, but not a "show stopper".

The ARRL reviews show the TX/RX switching times in their reviews, the 7300 is shown as being quicker in that regard than the K3...

73 Dave
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VK6HP

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Re: List of radios with silent QSK
« Reply #18 on: August 13, 2021, 04:15:24 AM »

Nick,

I am not a QSK operator but in the absence of any expert TS-890S feedback from CW operators, I can tell you that the radio T/R switching (with the linear amp relay disabled and electronic amp keying selected) is pretty much as described by Paul for the IC7610: there is a quiet click from a small relay if you listen for it.

73, Peter.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2021, 04:17:37 AM by VK6HP »
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G4IKZ

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Re: List of radios with silent QSK
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2021, 03:58:08 AM »

Updated list below. It’s not finished but for my own purposes I’ve gone as far as I need to go with this. If anybody wants to make changes, expand the list, or fill in the gaps feel free to do so.

- Nick.

QSK List: Version #3
The list below groups radios by T/R switching technology. In this context I define ‘T/R switching’ to include ALL circuit switching that occurs at the transmit>receive and receive>transmit transitions ‑ not just the antenna changeover switch.  Thus it includes any T/R switching for control of peripherals such as amplifiers. I acknowledge that noise from such switching is just one aspect of QSK operation but that's all this list is about.

Group 1: Unconditionally Silent QSK
Group 1 radios don’t use any electro-mechanical components for any T/R switching functions. In that respect their T/R switching will always be silent because they contain nothing that could make a noise.
Elecraft K2, K3, KX2, KX3 & K4   
(“Nothing gets out of the Elecraft lab until it has silent T/R switching (PIN diodes, not relays) and fast, clean QSK” - Elecraft K4/FAQ/How does the K4’s CW performance compare to that of other direct-sampling SDRs?)
RGO ONE    (Confirmed by W9AC in this thread).
Ten-Tec (?)   (exact models TBD)

Group 2: Conditionally Silent QSK
T/R switching of Group 2 radios might not be silent under all circumstances. But there is at least one operating condition where they can be. This group could (for example) include radios whose only T/R relay is used for controlling an external amplifier, but only if all such relays can be disabled, either via hardware link or configuration menu. Radios in this group are fundamentally different to those in Group 1, but that doesn’t necessarily make them ‘inferior’ to those in Group 1.  A  Group 2 radio with the option to use either a transistor or a relay to control an amplifier is arguably “better” (i.e. more flexible) than a Group 1 radio that has no relay option. But the Group 2 radio might be considered inferior (from the QSK noise viewpoint) if that relay cannot be disabled.
[Hypothetical group - no radios yet identified].

Group 3: Very Quiet QSK
Group 3 radios have at least one T/R relay that cannot be disabled. Radios only belong to Group 3 if all such relays are very quiet ‑ such that they would not normally be heard without deliberately listening to them.
IC-7610    (Confirmed by W9AC in this thread).
IC-7851    (?)
TS-890S   (confirmation needed)
TS-990S   (?)

Group 4: Clearly Audible QSK
Group 4 radios have at least one T/R relay that cannot be disabled. Radios only belong to Group 4 if at least one such relay is always clearly audible without special effort.
FTDX10   (Thread ‘Based on the price of radios ftdx10 is a game changer?’ at groups.io claims ‘CW performance is great, the only down side is the relay noise, it is very audible during QSK without headphones’).
FTDX101   (Thread ‘FTDX101MP QSK OPERATION’ at groups.io refers to ‘clank clank’).
FTDX101   (Thread ‘FTDX101 vs TS890’ at QRZ.com claims ‘Yaesu uses relays that clatter’).
FTDX1200   (?)
FTDX3000   (?)
FTDX5000   (?)
FTDX9000   (?)
FT-450D   (Review #9529 at eham.net claims ‘the relay is too noisy for QSK’).
FT-818      (?)
FT-991A   (?)
IC-705      (Article ‘Comparing the Lab599 Discovery TX-500 and the Icom IC-705’ at qrper.com claims that ‘both the TX-500 and IC-705 use relays, not pin diode switching, so you can hear relays clicking inside the radio’).
IC-7300   (Video at YouTube shows how to quieten the relay with putty).
IC-7300   (Thread ‘at QRZ.com refers to ‘the relay clacking LOUDLY when using CW Full Break-in).
TS-590S(G)   (Thread ‘TS-590SG QSK on CW’ at groups.io suggests some difference of opinion).

Group 5: Full QSK Not Supported
Group 5 radios don’t provide full QSK ‑ i.e. full break-in CW.
Lab599 TX-500   (Article ‘Comparing the Lab599 Discovery TX-500 and the Icom IC-705’ at qrper.com claims that ‘TX-500 doesn’t have full break-in QSK like the IC-705. The TX-500 has at minimum a 100ms recovery time after keying a character).


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G4AON

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Re: List of radios with silent QSK
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2021, 04:35:13 AM »

One ambiguous area is the definition of “full break in” or QSK.

It is reasonably safe to assume that most radios struggle to let you listen between dots, and that many switch cleanly and fast enough that you can listen between letters up to the speed of an average “competent” operator, typically around 20 to 30 wpm.

Relay noise is both irritating and wearing mechanically, so there is an advantage to using solid state switching, although that doesn’t automatically mean faster QSK.

A dot is 48 mS long at 25 wpm, letter to letter spacing should therefore be 144 mS at that speed. At 36 wpm letter to letter spacing should be 100 mS, nearly the same as the changeover of the “sluggish” Lab599 radio (QST August 2021 review lists 122 mS as the CW TX to RX time).

Many operators that use fast delay timing may opt for a few tens of milliseconds, as hearing between dots at any reasonable speed is beyond most radios. At, for example, 50 to 70 mS delay you avoid unnecessary noise and would still hear the other station in the gaps.

For what it’s worth, I am an ex marine radio operator and rarely use full break in. The main exceptions being working a DXpedition, or during particularly busy contests. My K3 was set to 50 mS under those circumstances.

73 Dave
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K0UA

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Re: List of radios with silent QSK
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2021, 10:20:41 AM »

Quote
IC-7610 (?) - confirmation needed

Confirmed.

Paul, W9AC


OK.  Finally after putting my head and ear directly against the 7610 case and move the key further way to lessen the sound from the clicks of the key itself,  and do this experiment in a silent room. I was able to actually hear the reed relay in the 7610. It is so soft and difficult to hear (at least to my ears) as to be inconsequential. BUT it is there. I suppose some reed relays might be louder than others, and no doubt some operators hearing would be better than mine. But this is why I thought the 7610 to be silent. Sorry for the confusion.
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73  James K0UA

ZL1BBW

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Re: List of radios with silent QSK
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2021, 03:57:41 PM »

One ambiguous area is the definition of “full break in” or QSK.

It is reasonably safe to assume that most radios struggle to let you listen between dots, and that many switch cleanly and fast enough that you can listen between letters up to the speed of an average “competent” operator, typically around 20 to 30 wpm.

Relay noise is both irritating and wearing mechanically, so there is an advantage to using solid state switching, although that doesn’t automatically mean faster QSK.

A dot is 48 mS long at 25 wpm, letter to letter spacing should therefore be 144 mS at that speed. At 36 wpm letter to letter spacing should be 100 mS, nearly the same as the changeover of the “sluggish” Lab599 radio (QST August 2021 review lists 122 mS as the CW TX to RX time).

Many operators that use fast delay timing may opt for a few tens of milliseconds, as hearing between dots at any reasonable speed is beyond most radios. At, for example, 50 to 70 mS delay you avoid unnecessary noise and would still hear the other station in the gaps.

For what it’s worth, I am an ex marine radio operator and rarely use full break in. The main exceptions being working a DXpedition, or during particularly busy contests. My K3 was set to 50 mS under those circumstances.

73 Dave

Hi Dave,

When this topic was listed I was going to suggest an Oceanspan and Atlanta plus seperate aerials as being the ideal setup, bit dated, but from recall they had really good listen in between.

I personally find that with fan noise from the amp and psu's and other things going on, even with my purloined ex GKA headphones, that the concept of full break, as in hearing everything constantly on the RX side, is totally lost on me in an amateur sense.

Only ever really found it really useful when sending a bundle of tfc and the ship being able to dit and stop me to get a RQ, especially when on the trawler watch point.

Hope all is good in G land.

Cheers  Gavin



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ex MN Radio Officer, Portishead Radio GKA, BT Radio Amateur Morse Tester.  Licensed as G3YCP ZL1DAB, now taken over my father (sk) call as ZL1BBW.

KB1NO

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Re: List of radios with silent QSK
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2021, 03:58:23 PM »

Just listened to a FTDX-101 in full QSK.  To my ears the relay click is just barely perceptible.
Sounds like a reed relay, but I can't be certain. 
It may be more noticeable to a younger person with better hearing.
John, KB1NO
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N3HEE

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Re: List of radios with silent QSK
« Reply #24 on: September 08, 2021, 09:51:50 AM »

The Flex 6600M belongs in Group 3.  Probably also Flex 6400, 6400M, 6600, 6600M as well. 
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Joe
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W4MSL

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Re: List of radios with silent QSK
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2021, 06:03:55 PM »

If you aren't looking at only new (or recent) rigs, and can tolerate the anxiety of owning a Ten Tec, you can certainly find a nice one at a decent price.
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WB9LUR

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Re: List of radios with silent QSK
« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2021, 10:48:50 AM »

My Kenwood TS-590 has a switching relay (not diode) and even with the sidetone and RX audio off - I cannot hear it switch.

My backup rig (Alinco DX-SR8T) chatters like an old railroad telegraph when it switches...

I use QSK 100% of the time.

Randy / WB9LUR

« Last Edit: October 03, 2021, 10:51:23 AM by WB9LUR »
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73, Randy / WB9LUR - http://www.CallingDX.com

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K7MEM

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Re: List of radios with silent QSK
« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2021, 11:36:38 AM »

If you are considering boat anchors, I have a Heathkit HR-1680/HX-1681 RX/TX combination, that I built in the early 80s. The key switching would fall into Group 1. It is all solid state switching. Completely silent.
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Martin - K7MEM
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AK4YH

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Re: List of radios with silent QSK
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2021, 04:14:17 AM »

My K1 has awesome QSK!
Gil.
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