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Author Topic: Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued  (Read 887 times)

AF6D

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Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued
« on: November 05, 2021, 07:23:13 PM »

As the owner of a web hosting company and as a programmer since 1981 I know the importance of software and Reliable Hardware. These two things have kept me from entering the realm of SDR transceivers until Apache Labs came along. My biggest concern was having a computer built into the transceiver it's something simple like Ram failing or an SSD or something simple but enough to kill the radio. I'd reached a point where I was willing to trust it.

I was looking forward to the Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE MK II and noted that it's constantly on indefinite backorder. I finally sent a message to them only to learn that it's been discontinued. Obsolete. It seems that it was hardly out there long enough to be obsoleted by anyting. That means a step backwards to the 70000. One key difference is that the 7000 is only a 100 watt unit compared to the 8000 that would do a variable 200-500 if you really felt the need to push it that hard.

Can anyone shed any light on this obsolescence as well as plans for the future? I sent them a reply asking that question and I haven't heard back from them again. They just might not have received it yet. The 8,000 was said to be the absolute finest available with signals so far down in the noise but yet you could still pull them out. Combined with my SteppIR that's exactly what I wanted!

I feel bad that I didn't move quickly enough to get one although maybe the question is there that maybe I should feel lucky? I don't know.
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WB8LBZ

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Re: Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued
« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2021, 07:46:21 PM »

I had one of the 8000 without the computer built in. I had the cover off once for an update of the LCD display. There is a bunch of room in there. I could imagine the final amp could be replaced with a more powerful with a 65 volt final. There is room on the back panel for additional power wires. That would make it a real blowtorch. The receiver in the 8000 is the same as the 7000. You can get that stellar receive just no blowtorch. Once in a while you will see a 7000 show up in the For Sale adds but you need to move quick as they don't last long.

73, Larry  WB8LBZ
El Paso, TX
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KB6DYA

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Re: Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued
« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2021, 08:11:14 PM »

I know this is about the 8000. I found Apache labs is coming out with a new SDR, it is not high power, only 100 watts
https://www.dxzone.com/apachelabs-andromeda/
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NO9E

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Re: Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2021, 08:09:44 AM »

Quote
The 8,000 was said to be the absolute finest available with signals so far down in the noise but yet you could still pull them out. Combined with my SteppIR that's exactly what I wanted!

After 8000, there will be 9000 that is fabulous, much better than the 8000. After 9000 there will be 10,000 that is fabulous, much better than the 9000......

The truth is that with better antennas and higher tower, a $600 FT891 will be trump a $10k radio.... A signal in the mud with a 40ft beam becomes crystal clear with a beam at 70 ft.

I suggest buying the 7000. If you need power, buy Expert 1.5k and you will have an instant KW. 

I have Flex 6600. Never a hardware problem with the radio or a PC although plenty of other problems.  In comparison to the Flex, Apaches sound better on transmit and also have better NB + phasing of 2 antennas. Flex is easy to network even for two people.

Ignacy NO9E
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AF6D

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Re: Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2021, 08:59:13 AM »

I already have a SteppIR and a legal limit amp. I wasn't asking for suggestions other than if anyone knew what caused the 8000 to become obsolete.Telling me that there will be a 9000 and then a 10,000... with all due respect sir that was just being sarcastic. I'm not sure why you thought you needed to tell me how to build a station when I've already got a good station. If you feel that talking down to another extra class makes you feel better than you go ahead and go with that. I asked a serious question expecting a serious reply. A 7000 would be buying an obsolete radio in itself. I shouldn't need to justify why I want something better than what I have now.
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N2DTS

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Re: Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2021, 07:29:53 AM »

Radios,s like the flex 6400M, the Elad fdm duo, the Icom 7300/7610 and the Elecraft K4 are sdr's but do not
use a PC to run them.
Performance is very good, options are more limited then the PC processed ones, but I really liked the 6400M.

Most can work well remote and you are not tied to windows.
The icom,s, Flex and Elecraft radios can be repaired and upgraded in the US.

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AF6D

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Re: Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2021, 08:08:01 AM »

N2DTS, AF6D. Thank you for your reply Brett. I'm not sure I would put the 7300 in the same category at all with a Flex or an Anan and certainly not with the Elecraft. Although extremely popular, the 7300 is essentially an entry-level radio. It's meant to go price-wise right next to the Yaesu. It is hugely popular but from my readings on Facebook it's mostly people running FT8. I'm not reading any reports of how well it performs on voice. Admittedly the propagation is still If He Is We rise on the 25th cycle. But I don't need another $1,000 radio.

I don't like the idea of having a computer inside the transceiver is I mentioned. Should it fail the radio goes tits up. On the other hand the 7000 has the same receiver and just a different transmitter. The eight thousand would do 200-500 W but it was recommended that one not push it that high. The 7000 is only a 100 watt rig. I have found that I often times don't need to run more than 500 W anyway and 200 W is usually sufficient with a SteppIR. I'm one of those two truly believes that the antenna system is the heart of a quality radio system. I've worked Japan with 1w voice. Of course I know part of that was propagation and we both had our antennas pointed at one another but still, 1w? I think it was pretty damn good.

The Anan is not Windows specific. The software one runs is what makes the difference. The SunSDR2 software for example it's supposed to be the best and it is available in both windows and Linux. People running Windows 10 report nothing but problems with incompatibilities here and there. I'm a Linux guy. We don't have too many problems with Linux. I operate a web hosting business and we stopped even offering Windows servers because you're such a pain in the butt. But that in itself is part of my thinking process behind not wanting a computer as part of the rig.

The thing with the Anon is that it is well respected and open source. When it comes to DSP in noise reduction it is said that there is nothing that comes close. They did a side-by-side comparison with a 7610 and although the 7610 could barely hear the station they were using as a reference the Anan could actually understand what was being said. One has to get used to the settings but the software helps out a great deal. Once everything is dialed in you can have a noise floor of zero. The only thing that is going to come through is a signal. I'm one of those that doesn't look at the S meter either. My eyes are not what hear. You know what I mean?

My real point of posting though was trying to find out what happened to the 8000. Does it shed light on purchasing something that may come in the future? When I asked Apache Labs why the 8000 was obsolete their reply was that they couldn't tell me what they had coming in the future. That wasn't the question. The question was why was the 8000 obsolete already. Getting email replies from them is inconsistent and specific to this topic they seem to be trying to avoid saying anything at all. Maybe they're just stressed out because they're still back ordered six to eight weeks on the 7000's.

I will sit back and see what Apache Labs comes out with. I'm in no hurry. For what it's worth, the Anan is available with or without the computer built-in. Every one of the radios you mentioned has a computer built in. Just not in the traditional sense of a motherboard with ram and a hard drive or SSD. Well actually the SDR's do have an SSD for storage.

The point is that all new radios with SDR have some form of microprocessor inside. At least with the Anan one can purchase it without the computer and have a backup computer perhaps set up for the software in case one goes down. If they've got money coming out the wazoo maybe even a really powerful laptop.

Thanks again Brett.
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N2DTS

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Re: Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2021, 10:09:02 AM »

Well, I am unsure how to describe the FPGA that does most of the sdr work in standalone radio's.
It limits the options you have access to but can be fast.
In the case of the Flex 6400M there was a good amount of latency through the radio on voice, on the Elad, Icom's and even the Xiegu G90 it was VERY low.
The Anan's were good with a good computer.

I think problems with FPGA radios are rare, at least the FPGA part.
Screens on standalone radio's can be an issue.
I had one 7300 go erratic on power output and crackling, another one had the screen processor fail.
The 6400M was fine (VERY nice display), the 7610 has been rock solid.

I REALLY like the 7610 and just wish the fidelity was better.
The K4 may rule them all....
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AF6D

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Re: Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2021, 07:49:30 PM »

I would agree with you on the FPGA. The Anan at this point is the radio to beat. Bear with me as I make corrections to this blasted speech to text that seems to require me to work three times harder than I need to. LOL.

You're absolutely correct at the a non specific to latency had the lowest. That's a key factor in my decision and why I'm willing to wait. I just want them to kind of give an idea of what's going on. I've been told I can still get the 7000 as I mentioned and it has the same receiver as the 8000. But that would still be like buying a new car that was built two years ago and just repackaged. I want the newest but most stable platform available. I can accept bleeding edge but in my business of web hosting as well as web design and database integration, when it comes to computer technology we don't go there. We demand stability so that we can ensure for our customers that their websites are going to remain up and they will continue to receive mail. We have an extremely high up time as a result. Our QoS is solid for that reason. The same thought process goes into selecting a computer driven SDR.

They say that you can't teach an old dog new tricks I don't think applies in ham radio. I've been at this a long time and building and repairing and installing repeaters and mobile installations in a whole nine yards. That's what I'm used to is being able to fix a radio. With everything going 2 being built around an SDR chip it's going to make it interesting to see what the future brings. Even with a magnifier I don't think I can see those smds well enough like I could when I was in my twenties doing bench repair. Not that it matters, but I built the first West Coast component level repair center for cellular telephones. That's when they still mounted in the trunk of a car like a Motorola or an IMTS. Now 110 carry the damn thing in your pocket. LOL.

Two features that I really like with the Anon that are available with other radios but specific to the Anon is that it is remarkable. I'm looking at moving out of California and perhaps down to the south end of Texas. I'd like to get closer to the Equator because this will be my last solar cycle I'm sure. The Anan has dual diversity receive and so I'm looking for acreage where I can put up with a good vertical as well as two SteppIR's on the same tower. As I recall the Anan allows one to select three separate antennas. I love the SteppIR antenna is that one can dial it right in on frequency for a 1:1 match.

Thanks for indulging me in conversation. I'd really like to find out why the 8000 was obsoleted so quickly. I'm wondering if it's because the PA could go all the way to 500w and people were not heeding the warning not to do that. If it couldn't do 500w but could do 400w or even 350w they should have put something in there to stop it from burning out the finals. I'm guessing and I shouldn't do that because it annoys me when others do it.

For now the 7610 will stay as my primary unit. I've got an older FT-847 and FT-2000 but they're still solid state and if Russia or China decides to drop something on us and cause an EMP l'll need to put that sucker in a faraday cage.
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N6YWU

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Re: Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2021, 08:58:40 PM »

The point is that all new radios with SDR have some form of microprocessor inside.

Not all.

The Hermes Lite 2 direct sampling HF transceiver, like the Anan, does not have a microprocessor inside.  Just an FPGA to interface to its ethernet port.  The rest needs to be done in software on a computer.  Instead of a PC, I run my SDR software for the HL2 on my iPad mini (or iPhone), since it actually has a faster CPU than most typical PCs. 

One difference from the Anan is that the HL2 runs OpenHPSDR Protocol 1 (with 4 receiver slices), whereas IIRC the Anan runs the newer Protocol 2. 

Only 5 Watts; but they have been paired with a HR50 or KPA500 for more.  Unfortunately, due to the worldwide semiconductor shortage, the FPGA needed to build an HL2 is on backorder, so Makerfabs is currently out of stock. 
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N2DTS

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Re: Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2021, 07:50:17 AM »

I had a Flex 5000 a few months ago with the dual receive setup and the KE9NS software and tried the diversity and while it works, its fiddly, you have to fuss with it a lot.
I found it of no real use in general operation.

The Anan has pure signal which IS worth while to have!
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NO9E

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Re: Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2021, 11:23:00 AM »

Quote
I already have a SteppIR and a legal limit amp. I wasn't asking for suggestions other than if anyone knew what caused the 8000 to become obsolete. Telling me that there will be a 9000 and then a 10,000
Trying to be helpful but seems no sense of humor.

Quote
I know the importance of software and Reliable Hardware.
New radios and PCs are very reliable. Software not.

Quote
The 8,000 was said to be the absolute finest available with signals so far down in the noise but yet you could still pull them out.
The ability to receive weak signals is a function of sensitivity, selectivity, phase noise, APF if CW, a bit less NB and NF.  Top radios are nearly identical. The "absolute finest" is a statement by an excited user that means nothing. In fact, many 20 year old radios are still competitive with the new radios and are winning contests.

I had a beam and 1500W and should have been happy. Except for lacking the newest radio. After lifting the antennas to 100 ft and phasing beams, the world has changed, and I can hear stations that nothing could pick up from the mud before. I also bought a newest radio, and it made my life miserable despite no hardware problems.

Ignacy NO9E
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NB4R

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Re: Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued
« Reply #12 on: November 16, 2021, 11:51:28 AM »

Hello AF6D,

Almost two years ago I was in the market for an SDR transceiver. I spent at least a month reading and trying to make an informed decision as to which one to buy. I looked at both the 7000 and 8000. One could buy either the 8000 or the 7000 with a built in computer or just the 7000 by itself. The computers in both models ran Windows 10. Since I've been in computers most of my adult life, I chose the 7000 without the CPU. Plus I didn't want the aggravation of dealing Windows 10 upgrades inside the transceiver. I find running the radio and associated software on my desktop PC easier. I find my desktop PC infinitely more flexible. I can add more or less hardware to my desktop pc. Now that is just me. Someone else might find the internal CPU easier to work with. Different people have varied likes and needs. I have just retired. I plan on keeping this transceiver for a long time.

Since my purchase in December 2019 the software has been updated many times. Improvements and upgrade have been made to make the software easier to use. Most of the software for Apache radios are coded and supported by a number of volunteer programmers. Sometimes this does not provide to a steady stream of upgrades and bug fixes. But, to me the software improvements have been outstanding! Sometimes it seems like I have a new radio from one day to the next. Plus, you get to  directly interact with the person(s) making the changes. As far as I know the company does none of the programming. This may have changed with the addition of the new Andromeda transceiver. It has knobs and buttons for radio control.  Apache has an excellent forum at https://apache-labs.com/community/ . It is organized logically and easy to search. It also has a moderator that can answer just about any question you can throw at him. Or, he will give direction to the information you need to answer your query.

The Apache radios are the only ones that feature "Pure Signal" transmit audio processing. It is feedback from the transmitted signal that greatly improves distortion and improves the quality of the transmitted audio. This is an improvement that you can witness as you transmit.

As far as the discontinuation of the 8000 I can only speculate. I feel it was discontinued because of low sales or problems associated with it. Of all the QSO's involving one or both parties using Apache radios, I've never witnessed one that owned an 8000 transceiver.
When I ordered mine, The 8000 seems to have appeared and disappeared rather quickly as far as it's availability on the website.

All in all I love my black 7000DLE Mark 2. It has been very reliable and flexible. The 7000 has been on the market since 2017. This says a lot about the transceiver.

73,
Ruben
NB4R
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AF6D

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Re: Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2021, 03:33:43 AM »

NB4R, AF6D - Hi Ruben. The name on this end is Bob. Thank you for an excellent update on your 7000. You have given me reason to consider purchasing it. Of course I'm interested in what they're going to come out with next and maybe they learn some lessons on the 8000. But as you mentioned every time somebody comes out with new code it's like getting a new radio. That means the 7000 certainly isn't dead. The only real reason for wanting the 8000 was that it was variable 200-500 w.

Like you, I'm a computer professional. I own a web hosting company and have had well over 100 something *NIX servers. I'm a Linux guy and SunSDR2 Pro is said to be killer on the Anan. It runs on Linux or Windows. Of course I would run it on Linux. I may actually set up a PC as a dual boot just so I have the option of trying it both ways. There's more software available for Windows but I don't want the hassles with Hardware that Windows 10 bring. I'm an experienced Windows guy as well and have worked in computer integration, Sales and Repair. My main thing however has been since 1981 I have been a freelance and Commercial programmer. I prefer to deal with the 1's and the 0's.

Due to health issues I'm told I've got ten or fifteen years left. That's just about enough time to ride out this next sun cycle. I want to do it in style. I'd like a simple shack with a main SDR transceiver in the 7610 as a backup. I've already got the SteppIR and the legal limit amp. I believe however that with a good receiver and antenna, power is not so much the issue. If one can work it on 100 w then that's my goal. I am however realistic that there are times when you need to run some power. I'd be lying and dying if I said I never ran power. LOL.

Like you I'm concerned with a PC regardless of the OS mounted inside the rig. The question immediately comes to my mind, what if it fails? Am I going to have to troubleshoot the RAM? Am I going to have to replace the power supply? As I'm sure you know a Linux computer requires less overhead to run which gives it more horsepower to run applications. I've been building high-power high-reliability servers for years. I have no problem building the same thing with a dual processor XEON Linux rackmount PC to go along with the black 7000. I do like that in Black! With either a 24in or a 32in LCD monitor. I have it all planned out.

Next to that on the other side would be rack mounted audio hardware to make it capable of going to 6 KHz audio. I plan on installing an m audio sound card and a RE20 microphone. I have a lot of experience with computer sound cards of that quality. I'm not normally into ESSB but having the ability is what I want. For DX I'm sure you know you want narrowband audio. Most people don't realize it when they try to enhance the bass on their audio signal they're sucking power out of the amplifier because it takes three times as much amplifier power to hit the bass audio frequencies as it does the mids and the highs. We want 300-3000 on the audio.

Up until now my mentor has been Steve K1GMM who has a YouTube channel and a website. https://kc1egu.wixsite.com/essb-ham-radio  He's extremely knowledgeable on the Anan and the software to use with them. His YouTube videos are very informative as he tries one combination after another after another. I swear, the guy doesn't sleep. But I'm certainly willing to learn from anyone that'll give me the time of day. I know that getting into it is a bit of effort but you can teach an old ham new tricks.  ;D

Thank you for your encouraging words in your personal description of your operation of the 7000. You were dialed right in on my frequency so to speak and gave me the feedback I was looking for. Although none of us will probably know why the 8000 was pulled so quickly, knowing that the 7000 uses the same receiver and I know that the receiver in the antenna or the heart of a system is good enough for me to drop back to the 7000. As long as I'm comfortable that I'm not stepping back into obsolescence I'm more than happy. Your statement that every time one of the volunteer coders comes back with a new software update it's like getting a new radio, and that sold me.

Thank you very much for your targeted feedback.

73 de AF6D
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N2DTS

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Re: Apache Labs - ANAN 8000DLE Discontinued
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2021, 05:52:47 AM »

Maybe I am wrong, but last I used one, the Anan radio software had some very good built in audio tools
like multi band compressors, noise gates, equalizers etc.

I don't think you even need a great microphone to sound great on those radio's.



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