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Author Topic: Cost to rent a remote station?  (Read 1152 times)

K6BRN

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2021, 08:49:34 AM »

Brian,

Keep in mind that you cannot build these types of remotely controlled stations from cobbled together, tubed gear. Everything needs to support remote control - rigs, amplifiers, antenna tuners, rotors, antenna switches, etc. Even the computers at the shack need to be up to today's standards. The owner also needs to be skilled at TCP/IP networking or hire the expertise.

This all suggests that the equipment cannot be much more than 5 to 7 years old and that the ham must be a modern practitioner. The investment is substantial and must have been recently incurred in order to qualify as a super station such as cited in this thread.

- Glenn W9IQ

Hi Glenn:

Yes, specific skills and capital investment is needed to establish a remote station.  But many have done it.  And while existing older equipment, especially tube equipment, may not be suitable for this application, having a very good antenna farm is easily half the battle.

Wanting to go there (total remote automation) and being willing to invest and bring on people to work issues an owner/operator is not familiar with - THAT is another issue.

My PV ham club has at least two "Aces" at doing exactly this - and FlexRadio gear does seem to be the equipment of choice, though the amount of pure custom work in software and hardware they've also done is very impressive.

Brian - K6BRN

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W9IQ

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2021, 09:00:27 AM »

Yes, specific skills and capital investment is needed to establish a remote station.  But many have done it.  And while existing older equipment, especially tube equipment, may not be suitable for this application, having a very good antenna farm is easily half the battle.

Wanting to go there (total remote automation) and being willing to invest and bring on people to work issues an owner/operator is not familiar with - THAT is another issue.

My PV ham club has at least two "Aces" at doing exactly this - and FlexRadio gear does seem to be the equipment of choice, though the amount of pure custom work in software and hardware they've also done is very impressive.

I think this is a good part of the value proposition of the RemoteHamRadio folks. They have created a standard, browser based abstraction layer that allows integration of a diverse portfolio of remotely controllable equipment. They have also integrated the subscription management and billing into that solution. I applaud them for seeing a market niche and exploiting it.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K3XR

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2021, 09:17:05 AM »

I have always felt the operation of your remote station being operated by others poses some interesting legal questions.  As the owner of the remote station are you not the control operator and if so does that require your 24 hour presence and control?

FCC Part 97.3(4)
4) Amateur service. A radiocommunication service for the purpose of self-training, intercommunication and technical investigations carried out by amateurs, that is, duly authorized persons interested in radio technique solely with a personal aim and without pecuniary interest.

Seems to be a fine line between operating for a pecuniary interest and having others use your station for a pecuniary interest? 

I'm not a lawyer and don't play one on TV so I have no definitive answer to some of the issued raised.  I'm just going to assume the FCC has taken these issues into consideration and finds no rules violation. 
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W9IQ

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2021, 09:30:05 AM »

I have always felt the operation of your remote station being operated by others poses some interesting legal questions.  As the owner of the remote station are you not the control operator and if so does that require your 24 hour presence and control?

These stations are operating under remote control as defined in 97.3(39). The (remote) control operator only needs to be present when transmitting per 97.7 et al.

Regarding the station licensee responsibilities:

§97.103 Station licensee responsibilities.

(a) The station licensee is responsible for the proper operation of the station in accordance with the
FCC Rules. When the control operator is a different amateur operator than the station licensee, both
persons are equally responsible for proper operation of the station.

(b) The station licensee must designate the station control operator. The FCC will presume that the
station licensee is also the control operator, unless documentation to the contrary is in the station records.

(c) The station licensee must make the station and the station records available for inspection upon
request by an FCC representative.


So the station licensee does not need to be present at the station nor at a control point. But he or she does share responsibility for the activities of the station.

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 09:32:07 AM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K7JQ

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2021, 11:25:30 AM »

I don't have a problem with a play-for-pay big-gun remote station. People can spend their money any way they wish for experiences they enjoy. And with the increasing antenna limitation/prohibition HOA situations, it's a great way for a ham living under those conditions a way to operate.

My question is when a ham uses such a remote station to qualify for operating awards and placement in contests. The operator's call sign gets the credit, not the call sign of the remote station he/she paid money to operate, and had nothing to do with its construction. I can understand if a ham wants to live in a desirable location with antenna restrictions, and constructs/owns a remote station on a separate parcel of land. 

I know operating skill is a major factor in achieving results. But how hard is it for a skilled operator using legal limit into 4/4/4 beams on a 150' tower perched on the northern tip of Maine to win or place high in a major DX contest? While other skilled ops operate their own stations they constructed.

I'm just questioning pay-for-play remote stations. Not if a guy uses his call sign to operate a contest at a friend's or club station, without paying for it. And he's not normally using said station to achieve DXCC, WAZ, etc awards.

I know there's all kinds of competing scenarios and opinions. But paying to operate *amateur* radio now brings our hobby into a new *commercial* realm. Maybe it's really no different than purchasing a radio, amp, and antenna from a retail vendor ;).

Bob K7JQ

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W9IQ

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2021, 11:53:10 AM »

For as long as I can remember, there have been ads in the back of QST for "rent a shack" destinations in the USA. Many of which were far from being a shack! Is that really any different than doing the same thing remotely?

Or how about the person that buys a vacation house that "just happens" to include a complete station. When that person starts operating from his/her "new" home, are the on-the-air accomplishments any less valid?

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 11:56:57 AM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KM1H

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2021, 12:26:25 PM »

For as long as I can remember, there have been ads in the back of QST for "rent a shack" destinations in the USA. Many of which were far from being a shack! Is that really any different than doing the same thing remotely?

How long ago can you remember?

Quote
Or how about the person that buys a vacation house that "just happens" to include a complete station. When that person starts operating from his/her "new" home, are the on-the-air accomplishments any less valid?

It doesnt matter if that vacation house had a ham station pre installed or added by the new owner. MANY have a second home and mine was in York Beach Maine under 1/4 mile from the ocean. BUT it was on a postage stamp lot and hamming was mostly with compact boatanchors on AM and restricted to 75 to 10M with wires and 6M with a 5 el yagi on a roof mount. SSB was via a hi tech TS-130 ;D

Because of what I call cheaters with zero integrity claiming awards won at someone elses remote I decided to no longer participate in DXCC altho I was on the Honor Roll.

Carl

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K7JQ

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2021, 12:31:21 PM »

For as long as I can remember, there have been ads in the back of QST for "rent a shack" destinations in the USA. Many of which were far from being a shack! Is that really any different than doing the same thing remotely?

Or how about the person that buys a vacation house that "just happens" to include a complete station. When that person starts operating from his/her "new" home, are the on-the-air accomplishments any less valid?

- Glenn W9IQ

Well, the "rent a shack" is a destination you would travel to for a limited stay, and not normally available to you at any time. Like a personal DXpedition, especially if it's a beautiful island in the Caribbean with other amenities also available ;). But as long as you have the finances, you can use pay-for-play remote ham radio anytime from home, and achieve your awards that way.

Buying a home with a ham shack already there, you now own the equipment and can control/modify it as you wish. The one-time financial outlay for the house just happens to include ham radio equipment.

But yes, valid points. And as I said, many scenarios and opinions :).

Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2021, 12:47:14 PM »

are the on-the-air accomplishments any less valid?

- Glenn W9IQ

Some people think in terms of whether it’s valid. Others including myself think integrity matters too and using someone else’s station isn’t. Even more, how anyone gets any sense of accomplishment by using a rent-a-station is astonishing.
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W9IQ

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2021, 01:02:23 PM »

What about the concept of club stations? When I lived in Germany, I found these to be quite common. The members did all of the work to design it and keep it operational and clean. If you are using a club station (with your own call) is it any less valid or does it have less integrity?

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K7JQ

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2021, 01:20:29 PM »

The guy using 100W into an end-fed wire at home, taking many months or years to achieve DXCC vs the guy that uses pay-for-play RHR to get DXCC in a week or two (or less) by just calling CQ DX with 1500W and stacked beams...like shooting fish in a barrel. Either one is "valid", but who feels the most accomplished?

Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2021, 01:29:43 PM »

If you are using a club station (with your own call) is it any less valid or does it have less integrity?

- Glenn W9IQ

Elizabeth B Browning comes to mind - “let me count the ways…”.

It’s somewhat sad we are having this discussion.
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W9IQ

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2021, 01:30:26 PM »

The guy using 100W into an end-fed wire at home, taking many months or years to achieve DXCC vs the guy that uses pay-for-play RHR to get DXCC in a week or two (or less) by just calling CQ DX with 1500W and stacked beams...like shooting fish in a barrel. Either one is "valid", but who feels the most accomplished?

Bob K7JQ

Interesting, Bob. In another thread, I saw the same postulation about those that use FT-8... I suppose the same question could be posed for those that use a keyboard to send CW instead of a key or bug... Or what about those that buy an antenna instead of making the antenna...

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: November 10, 2021, 01:35:56 PM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

N2SR

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2021, 01:40:42 PM »

The guy using 100W into an end-fed wire at home, taking many months or years to achieve DXCC vs the guy that uses pay-for-play RHR to get DXCC in a week or two (or less) by just calling CQ DX with 1500W and stacked beams...like shooting fish in a barrel. Either one is "valid", but who feels the most accomplished?

Bob K7JQ

What if you have 1500W and stacked beams in your own backyard and call CQ DX?   

What if you spent your own money, built a remote station with 1500W and stacked beams and call CQ DX? 



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Elect a clown.  Expect a circus.

KM1H

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2021, 01:59:37 PM »

What about the concept of club stations? When I lived in Germany, I found these to be quite common. The members did all of the work to design it and keep it operational and clean. If you are using a club station (with your own call) is it any less valid or does it have less integrity?

- Glenn W9IQ

What country are you in now??
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