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Author Topic: Cost to rent a remote station?  (Read 1150 times)

W9IQ

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2021, 08:14:08 AM »

A ham that cannot erect a station of his/her own uses a rental station to achieve DXCC. The ham publishes this fact on their QRZ page and openly discusses it on the forums. Does that ham lack integrity?

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KM1H

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2021, 08:19:32 AM »

A ham that cannot erect a station of his/her own uses a rental station to achieve DXCC. The ham publishes this fact on their QRZ page and openly discusses it on the forums. Does that ham lack integrity?

- Glenn W9IQ

He lacks integrity and brains and is the type who doesnt have the cojones to discuss it in the open on QRZ or elsewhere.
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K7JQ

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2021, 08:33:27 AM »

Amazing that they can get business at those prices.

Competition could bring price down: How about an AirBnB setup with a lot of individual stations of all calibre, each setting their own prices and schedules.
Tiny market. No ROI.

Agreed. Ham radio itself is a tiny market. Competition between commercial remote enterprises would reduce prices to a point where they wouldn't be able to financially remain in business. Imagine the capital outlay for RHR, Inc...acquiring property, building and maintaining the various  super-station locations, etc. Already a limited option and desirability for most amateurs, so maintaining a price structure to ensure profitability is essential. I imaging HOA antenna restricted hams would mostly be their customer base. Further diluting that base between various companies wouldn't be feasible.

Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2021, 08:47:58 AM »

A ham that cannot erect a station of his/her own uses a rental station to achieve DXCC. The ham publishes this fact on their QRZ page and openly discusses it on the forums. Does that ham lack integrity?

- Glenn W9IQ
‘Grasping at straws’ is the surest sign of a weak argument.

It’s pretty simple. Your station - your accomplishment. Using someone else’s - not.
Excuses and/or admonitions don’t change the above.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 08:57:13 AM by K1VSK »
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K7JQ

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2021, 09:27:49 AM »

A ham that cannot erect a station of his/her own uses a rental station to achieve DXCC. The ham publishes this fact on their QRZ page and openly discusses it on the forums. Does that ham lack integrity?

- Glenn W9IQ

As long as they're transparent about their "accomplishment", and their certificate has an asterisk or "Commercial Remote" endorsement that also acknowledges the call sign of the remote station. Like an "assisted" category in a contest ;). It's not a matter of "integrity", just a way of categorizing what you did.

Frankly, I think that a ham that "CANNOT erect a station of his/her own" is one that lives in a box with no access to the outside other that the front door...like a high-rise condo with no balcony. Other than that, there's always a way to stealth-position antennas in any other dwelling scenario, despite HOA/CC&R restrictions. As long as your antenna isn't visual to neighbors, and your station doesn't cause RFI...no harm, no foul. I know, one also  lacks "integrity" by not adhering to the CC&R contract they signed. So be it, but at least you don't have to resort to pay-for-play ;).

Bob K7JQ
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N2SR

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2021, 10:00:43 AM »

Take a world-class contester operating his own station with property location and antenna  restrictions vs his *paying* to operate a remote super-station in the same contest...guaranteed a huge difference in the score.
[/quote]

The difference is where the stations are, so you are comparing apples to oranges. 

There have been world class operators who have competed against each other with similar super stations from Eastern Maine or in similar places on the planet. 

Some world class operators seek out those super stations, and some super station owners also seek out world class operators.  That is so they can see what the station can so, as well as find any limitations in the station. 

A few of the RHR stations are in Eastern Maine, which obviously provides a huge advantage.  If you want a bigger advantage, you can buy VY2ZM's QTH.  Pretty sure it's still for sale. 




Quote
Just like there's different contest categories to ensure equal playing fields...single vs multi-op; high vs low power; assisted vs unassisted; tri-band vs wire antennas...perhaps the contest sponsors should consider another category like "commercial remote". Same thing with awards like DXCC, WAZ, etc.

I know it's just a hobby, but in the spirit of competition, skill-set, and achievement, maybe it's time for some rules and requirements to be revised.

Bob K7JQ

Separating SO1R from SO2R always sparks discussion.   IMO, if M/S is a separate category from M2, then why isn't SO1R separate from SO2R?   The reason is: single op 

The other issue is that there needs to be enough participants in the new category to warrant a new category.   

Also award/plaque sponsorship.



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K6BRN

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2021, 10:34:07 AM »

A ham that cannot erect a station of his/her own uses a rental station to achieve DXCC. The ham publishes this fact on their QRZ page and openly discusses it on the forums. Does that ham lack integrity?

- Glenn W9IQ
‘Grasping at straws’ is the surest sign of a weak argument.

It’s pretty simple. Your station - your accomplishment. Using someone else’s - not.
Excuses and/or admonitions don’t change the above.

Hi Donald (K1VSK):

I disagree - Glenn's question makes his point very well, particulary with regard to full disclosure.  In that regard, there does not seem to be one uniform way of adjusting for diverse/remote TX and RX locations in many awards and contests.  Perhaps suggestions on how to fix that while allowing for various styles of remote operation would be more useful than debating the ethics of these relatively new operating methods.

Regarding the ethics of renting time on a remote station ...

Hams are allowed to use whatever resources they have to operate and achieve awards, within the rules of the award or contest.  I have a very good friend who lives in a high-rise co-op in NYC.  He really can't put up any antenna other than a magnetic loop in his living room (and you know how well THAT works!) - but he DOES have the financial means to rent time on remote stations.

Renting time on a very capable station CAN be an advantage, just as access to broad, inexpensive plots of land, surplus coax and permissive antenna laws can be to someone who builds an extensive antenna farm.  Either way, the ham develops his/her operating skills, which is one of the key objectives of the amateur radio "service".

Just because a ham has different resources and finds a different solution to a problem is no reason to challenge their ethics.   In fact, it's downright silly and is equivalent to saying that any ham with a 50 foot tower and 3-element yagi is cheating, compared to those who can only put up a wire or magnetic loop antenna.

While stations are very important to hams, a ham is NOT defined by his or her FIXED station - for example, operating mobile has long been explicitly permitted.  Quite a few licensed operators have no station of their own at all.  And in an emergency, the skills of any ham are just as likely to be useful at a 3rd party emergency station as his/her own.  In fact, I'd argue that the diversity and learning involved in remote operation makes a ham even more valuable in an emergency.   One reason why IOTA, POTA, etc. are good learning excercises.  For that reason, I think that remote operation - whether it's your own private station (of which there are plenty) or a rented one, fits right in.

You MIGHT suggest that some contests be limited to non-remote operations, or choose to operate only those that are - but it's you choice to limit your own operating span.

And there IS a tendancy for some hams to judge their status by the size of their antenna farms.  Remote, rental operation tends to make that vanity moot.  But many of the remote stations are also more modest in size.

So - different strokes for different folks - live and let operate.  We all appreciate this hobby in slightly different ways.

Brian - K6BRN

« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 10:45:27 AM by K6BRN »
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K7JQ

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2021, 11:08:38 AM »

N2SR:

"Property location", as I mentioned above, is absolutely a limiting factor comparing scores in the same category. Operating a DX contest from my "black hole" southern AZ QTH is tough competing against east coasters when grabbing Europe (where all the mults are), especially with my compromised antennas. We get Japan, some other Asia, and Oceania, but they have limited mults. If I paid RHR for a Maine location, BIG difference. But would I have as much personal satisfaction as operating my own station? Nope. Not interested in moving to VY2 land...I'm a blue sky, warm weather person ;). Been there, done that weather-wise when I lived in Philly.

The advantage of operating SO2R (or SO2V) vs SO1R depends on your concentration and skill level being able to efficiently do it. I do it in various contests, but I'm certainly no whiz-bang at it. Sometimes I even question whether I should have stuck to SO1R and could have achieved a better score ::). It also depends on a station's capability for extended running, and antenna separation/filtering to avoid cross-band interference. While working a S&P band, you might lose your run frequency on the other band. So IMO, I think just a Single Op category is sufficient. Multi/Single give the various ops rest periods to operate a 48 hour contest better than a Single Op.

And I admit, creating a category like "Commercial Remote" would only result in limited participants currently. Maybe when/if it becomes more popular.

Bob K7JQ
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K7JQ

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2021, 11:19:57 AM »

K6BRN Brian,

Always a logical presentation. There is no right or wrong. Just personal opinion/preference. Lots of diversity in our hobby, and viewpoints are encouraged.

Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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  • Posts: 1949
Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2021, 11:26:38 AM »

A ham that cannot erect a station of his/her own uses a rental station to achieve DXCC. The ham publishes this fact on their QRZ page and openly discusses it on the forums. Does that ham lack integrity?

- Glenn W9IQ
‘Grasping at straws’ is the surest sign of a weak argument.

It’s pretty simple. Your station - your accomplishment. Using someone else’s - not.
Excuses and/or admonitions don’t change the above.

Hi Donald (K1VSK):

I disagree - Glenn's question makes his point very well, particulary with regard to full disclosure.  In that regard, there does not seem to be one uniform way of adjusting for diverse/remote TX and RX locations in many awards and contests.  Perhaps suggestions on how to fix that while allowing for various styles of remote operation would be more useful than debating the ethics of these relatively new operating methods.

Regarding the ethics of renting time on a remote station ...

Hams are allowed to use whatever resources they have to operate and achieve awards, within the rules of the award or contest.  I have a very good friend who lives in a high-rise co-op in NYC.  He really can't put up any antenna other than a magnetic loop in his living room (and you know how well THAT works!) - but he DOES have the financial means to rent time on remote stations.

Renting time on a very capable station CAN be an advantage, just as access to broad, inexpensive plots of land, surplus coax and permissive antenna laws can be to someone who builds an extensive antenna farm.  Either way, the ham develops his/her operating skills, which is one of the key objectives of the amateur radio "service".

Just because a ham has different resources and finds a different solution to a problem is no reason to challenge their ethics.   In fact, it's downright silly and is equivalent to saying that any ham with a 50 foot tower and 3-element yagi is cheating, compared to those who can only put up a wire or magnetic loop antenna.

While stations are very important to hams, a ham is NOT defined by his or her FIXED station - for example, operating mobile has long been explicitly permitted.  Quite a few licensed operators have no station of their own at all.  And in an emergency, the skills of any ham are just as likely to be useful at a 3rd party emergency station as his/her own.  In fact, I'd argue that the diversity and learning involved in remote operation makes a ham even more valuable in an emergency.   One reason why IOTA, POTA, etc. are good learning excercises.  For that reason, I think that remote operation - whether it's your own private station (of which there are plenty) or a rented one, fits right in.

You MIGHT suggest that some contests be limited to non-remote operations, or choose to operate only those that are - but it's you choice to limit your own operating span.

And there IS a tendancy for some hams to judge their status by the size of their antenna farms.  Remote, rental operation tends to make that vanity moot.  But many of the remote stations are also more modest in size.

So - different strokes for different folks - live and let operate.  We all appreciate this hobby in slightly different ways.

Brian - K6BRN

The only problem I see with your position is that it’s dependent entirely on ethics and a level playing field.

It all comes down to one fundamental question - is it your station, fixed, mobile or vacation venue, or not?
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KC0W

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2021, 11:35:06 AM »

And I admit, creating a category like "Commercial Remote" would only result in limited participants currently.

 I recommend calling it what it is, “Internet Remote”. Perhaps the contest sponsors can award extra points to participants who can order off of Amazon at the same time they are working stations? Make it a new mult category.
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KM1H

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2021, 11:36:33 AM »

If you want to own a super station then do it. And stop complaining about what HOA restriction youre in. If you have the money and dont want to find a job in a good ham location then BUY your own remote place.

Otherwise stay where you are and stop cheating....I dont care what the ARRL and CQ, etc say as their integrity went out the window years ago.

I operated at multi multi stations in MA decades ago, and eventually decided to move to NH as good border town locations were still affordable. I commuted to the Boston area (YUK) for many years until Southern NH opened up job wise and retired from a dream job.

If others dont have the cojones to do similar then find another hobby. Integrity is earned and not bought.

Quote
I disagree - Glenn's question makes his point very well, particulary with regard to full disclosure.  In that regard, there does not seem to be one uniform way of adjusting for diverse/remote TX and RX locations in many awards and contests.  Perhaps suggestions on how to fix that while allowing for various styles of remote operation would be more useful than debating the ethics of these relatively new operating methods.

Birds of a feather etc......
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N2SR

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2021, 12:03:54 PM »

N2SR:

"Property location", as I mentioned above, is absolutely a limiting factor comparing scores in the same category. Operating a DX contest from my "black hole" southern AZ QTH is tough competing against east coasters when grabbing Europe (where all the mults are), especially with my compromised antennas. We get Japan, some other Asia, and Oceania, but they have limited mults. If I paid RHR for a Maine location, BIG difference. But would I have as much personal satisfaction as operating my own station? Nope. Not interested in moving to VY2 land...I'm a blue sky, warm weather person ;). Been there, done that weather-wise when I lived in Philly.

So what's your argument?   You tried to compare property location to renting a station.  As I have already pointed out, you can buy land in Eastern Maine and operate from AZ.   What's the difference then?   

Who says you have to move to VY2?   Just as before, remote the QTH, and you can throw a stone to EU and you can be competitive.   

Your comments have devolved to complaining that people on the East Coast have some sort of "unfair" advantage to Europe. 

You made a conscious choice to live where you live.   If you want to be competitive in a DX contest, then operate from an East Coast station. 


Quote
The advantage of operating SO2R (or SO2V) vs SO1R depends on your concentration and skill level being able to efficiently do it. I do it in various contests, but I'm certainly no whiz-bang at it. Sometimes I even question whether I should have stuck to SO1R and could have achieved a better score ::). It also depends on a station's capability for extended running, and antenna separation/filtering to avoid cross-band interference. While working a S&P band, you might lose your run frequency on the other band. So IMO, I think just a Single Op category is sufficient. Multi/Single give the various ops rest periods to operate a 48 hour contest better than a Single Op.

And I admit, creating a category like "Commercial Remote" would only result in limited participants currently. Maybe when/if it becomes more popular.

Bob K7JQ

I know all about SO1R/SO2V and SO2R and the requirement and commitments to each. 

And I disagree. 

The reason for the difference between M/S and M2 is that a M/S will never beat a M2 score, just as a SO1R station will never beat a SO2R score.   



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W9IQ

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2021, 12:05:32 PM »

It is interesting to contrast some of these thoughts to other 'hobbies' with similar awards and recognitions. For example, if you enter a bass fishing contest, no one disparages you if you rent your boat, fishing gear, lures, etc. It is basically accepted that it is talent and luck that determines the winner - not what the winner owns. Similarly, if you are out fishing just for fun one day and happen to catch the largest fish recorded, there is no footnote on the record of "oh - but he didn't actually own the boat so that isn't real fishing nor is it ethical".

I also note that the arguments center around awards and contests. No one has seems to have a problem with simply making QSOs using a rental station. Very interesting...

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K0UA

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Re: Cost to rent a remote station?
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2021, 12:19:47 PM »

Yes it is all very interesting. There seem to be a lot of hams that are very opinionated and want all other hams to play ham radio EXACTLY as they like to play it. If you play ham radio is some other way, they either say your are cheating or "that's NOT ham radio" or both. it would seem there is not much if any room for personal preferences or interests. If you are not going to do it the way I say to do it, then you are a bad monkey. And if you are not going to follow in my footsteps in life, you might also be a bad monkey. Needless to say, I don't agree with this attitude.
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73  James K0UA
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