Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?  (Read 518 times)

KE2SJ

  • Member
  • Posts: 32
Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?
« on: December 17, 2021, 08:07:03 PM »

I have a dual band rig that puts out 45 watts.  I am interested in hitting more distant repeaters (and being able to quiet them enough to have QSOs).  I'm considering buying an FT-2980 because it puts out 80 watts. Does this extra power justify buying the radio?  Will those extra 30+ watts allow me to work significantly more repeaters?  I've got a good antenna that I can't get any more height on.
Logged

WB6BYU

  • Member
  • Posts: 20896
    • Practical Antennas
Re: Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2021, 10:13:36 PM »

It depends on your terrain, among other factors.

I live in a valley.  Usually 5 or 10 watts is enough to hit any of the
local repeaters.  Increasing the power beyond that doesn't add
many, because they are more limited by terrain and/or multipath
(which is relatively independent of power).  Sure, I can hear more
distant repeaters, and often kerchunk them when I raise my power,
but that doesn't mean I have a clean signal into them.

Not that higher power doesn't help sometimes, but other times
repositioning the antenna by a couple feet makes more of a
difference.

And, of course, if you can't hear the distant repeater well, then
higher power isn't going to improve that.


Now, other than receive ability, the situation may be different
over fairly flat ground where you don't have multipath.


But otherwise, if you already have your antenna up as high as
possible, and are using reasonably low-loss coax for the length
and frequency, then a beam antenna of some sort might make
the most worthwhile improvement.  Or switch to SSB / CW or
a digital mode like FT8, which work much better with weak
signals than FM does.

N4UFO

  • Member
  • Posts: 1171
Re: Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2021, 11:20:30 PM »

Consider this... every time you double power, your signal goes up by ~3db. That means, the difference between 1 and 2 watts would be the same as the difference between 10 and 20 watts, same as 100 to 200 watts. In your case, 45 to 80 would be, what... ~ 2.8 dB? That's not as much change as going from 1 to 2 watts.  So, I doubt it will make much difference. (takes 6 db increase to raise a typical S meter one S unit.) If you had some repeater that you were noisy, right on the edge of being readable, it might help. But if you can't hit it with 45 watts, odds are, you probably aren't going to hit it (and be readable) with 80 watts either.

If you had the rig on hand, it might be worth trying just to see... But if you have to spend money? Forget it! Besides... 80 watts from that small FM rig is going to mean one HOT heat sink if you talk very much at all. Not to mention taxing the typically used 15A power supply as that rig draws a full 15 amps at 80 watts!  :o

You would be FAR better off investing in even a small beam and a little TV rotor. A 3 element beam would be like 6 dBd gain... Think about this: As a sat op, I have often talked to a little tiny box using a quarter wave whip flying through space hundreds of miles away with just a few watts from an HT to a 3 element handheld beam (2m). Makes you think...  ;)

73 & GL!

Kevin N4UFO
« Last Edit: December 17, 2021, 11:32:43 PM by N4UFO »
Logged

K7MEM

  • Member
  • Posts: 1058
    • JavaScript Electronic Notebook
Re: Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2021, 11:50:50 PM »

Will those extra 30+ watts allow me to work significantly more repeaters?  I've got a good antenna that I can't get any more height on.

Significantly? No. You might get a few more, but more power on transmit doesn't translate to better, quieter, reception. As we use to say "if you can't hear them, you can't work them".

What kind of antenna do you have? How good is "good"? A better antenna, as someone else suggested, is a good Yagi with a rotator. I use a small 3-element Yagi on a mast with a rotator. It doesn't make a lot of difference, unless I am trying to suppress interference from stations behind, or to the side, of me. More elements, means a tighter beam and better reception, in the direction of the antenna. But it also means that you need more accurate aiming. A Yagi is a better way of getting more gain.

And, of course, height. You are at the mercy of buildings, trees, and other structures blocking/diminishing the signal from a repeater and your signal. You can sometimes get a little more height to access a few new repeaters. But usually, the height needed is impractical.

Someone else suggested trying SSB/CW. That would certainly help with obtaining distance, but the new rig is FM only. If you are looking to upgrade your radio, you might want to look into something that is multi-mode.
Logged
Martin - K7MEM
http://www.k7mem.com

GRUMPY2021

  • Posts: 280
    • HomeURL
Re: Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2021, 03:45:09 AM »

Power is no substitute for skill.    ;)
Logged

KD2HCU

  • Posts: 61
    • HomeURL
Re: Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2021, 06:21:50 AM »

As others have mentioned it won't make much of a difference.  If there is one particular repeater that you barely hit then it may improve. Try moving the antenna.  I usually have my uhf/vhf rig set on low power (10W) and only raise it if my signal isn't strong enough.  There may be other reasons (features) that might influence your purchase.
Logged

K1KIM

  • Member
  • Posts: 1556
    • HomeURL
Re: Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2021, 07:00:13 AM »

Repeaters by and large are all "line of sight".  A hill, a large building etc in the way can affect ability to hit the desired repeater. All the power in the world can't change what a 80' tower can.

It's a bit like the ham who buys a legal limit amplifier to improve his signal from a deficient antenna system. Back in the late 70's, when 10M was wide open, I would regularly QSO to Europe from the east coast on 5W-10W. I had a great antenna up high. But that's not line of sight obviously.  ;D ;D

I hit the local repeaters 10-15 miles away with full quieting with 2W. But there is nothing in the way and we are both up on high ground.

Here is a line of sight calculator for you to play with....

              https://www.scadacore.com/tools/rf-path/rf-line-of-sight/
« Last Edit: December 18, 2021, 07:04:32 AM by K1KIM »
Logged
So Many Toys.......So Little Time!

WA9AFM

  • Member
  • Posts: 978
Re: Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2021, 09:22:33 AM »

If you go much beyond 50w, you are probably crossing the line of diminishing returns.  Put your extra funds into a good external antenna.  As my Elmer told me when I entered the hobby, don't have a $100 radio (this was in the early '60's) and a 10 cent antenna.
Logged

K1KIM

  • Member
  • Posts: 1556
    • HomeURL
Re: Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2021, 10:13:46 AM »

If you go much beyond 50w, you are probably crossing the line of diminishing returns.  Put your extra funds into a good external antenna.  As my Elmer told me when I entered the hobby, don't have a $100 radio (this was in the early '60's) and a 10 cent antenna.

Kinda like buying an antenna "tuner" that will match up to a 30:1 SWR instead of fixing a poor antenna that's not resonant.

The 1st thing extra dollars should go to is the best antenna system for your constraints. Sending 80% of your power back to the ATU so it can "fool" the radio and not blow it up is a fools errand.
Logged
So Many Toys.......So Little Time!

WB6BYU

  • Member
  • Posts: 20896
    • Practical Antennas
Re: Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2021, 10:27:29 AM »

Quote from: N4UFO

...(takes 6 db increase to raise a typical S meter one S unit.)...




That's an oft-quoted standard for HF radios, but not at all the case
for most FM transceivers.  Regardless of the markings, most FM
rigs I've measured have a full scale display range of about 12 dB,
regardless of the markings on the scale.  And often that is done
with a bar graph driver, so you might have 7 discrete steps of
resolution.

I've seen the S-meter change from "S-9" to "S-9 +40 dB" with just
a 1 dB change in the output of the signal generator, because that
was the next display step.  Maybe that is one cause of some of the
inflated claims for antenna gain...

AC7CW

  • Member
  • Posts: 1789
Re: Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2021, 05:20:32 PM »

Some anecdotal tech info: I was 45 miles from a repeater with no intervening hills or mountains, couldn't open it with a 2 watt Icom handheld, put up a 4el beam and I could open it with the Icom set to low power =tenth of a watt and talk on it with 2... the antenna will typically make the biggest difference
Logged
Novice 1958, 20WPM Extra now... (and get off my lawn)

K1FBI

  • Member
  • Posts: 1475
Re: Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2021, 05:35:13 PM »

Then extra power might be enough to get you in to a Net before a slightly weaker station if that is important to you.
The extra power can also make up for loss in a long run of coax which even with LMR400, a 100' run would eat 1/3 of your power.
But in most cases you would be good at the 30 watt setting and would be fine programming local repeaters for 5 watts.
What I like about that rig the most is no fan to make noise and a  large heatsink.
Logged

KE2SJ

  • Member
  • Posts: 32
Re: Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2021, 07:56:04 PM »

I'm using a 60 or 70 foot run of LMR-240 equivalent to feed an d Fong j-pole, soon to be replaced with a Diamond X50A, about 20' off the ground.  I'm going to switch out the PVC mast with a fence top rail.  Hopefully that will buy me some extra height.  If I found an inexpensive 2m yagi, I'd put it up but dont think I'd have the cash for a rotor.
So it sounds like I should save my money and forego the 2980.  Many thanks to everyone for their advice.
Logged

K7MEM

  • Member
  • Posts: 1058
    • JavaScript Electronic Notebook
Re: Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2021, 10:25:39 PM »

You might want to look for a ham fest near you. I know that's tough in todays environment. You might be able to find a small Yagi and a rotator at a good price.

The 3-element Yagi that I use was purchased new around 1968. It was used for 2 Meter AM at the time (Heath Twoer), but works fine for anything on 2 Meters. These small Yagis do not require a big, expensive, rotator. I use a small rotator meant for a TV antenna (think Radio Shack). I bought mine at a ham fest for about $10-$15. The control box needed a little repair, but it works fine now. As a mast, I use two 10' sections of 1-1/4" iron pipe connected together with a coupling. The bottom 4' is secured to my deck with mast mounts from Home Depot. Iron pipe is a little heavy to work with, but it has survived a lot of 50 MPH winds lately.

The Diamond X-50 seems like a good antenna. I have a Diamond X-30 that I bought from a friends XYL, when he went SK. These are good antennas, as long as you get them some height. I had it up for a while, but I preferred the Yagi/Rotator setup.
Logged
Martin - K7MEM
http://www.k7mem.com

AC7CW

  • Member
  • Posts: 1789
Re: Do the extra 30 watts from the FT1-2980 Make a Big Difference?
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2021, 05:59:26 AM »

If it's just one repeater you don't need a rotator
Logged
Novice 1958, 20WPM Extra now... (and get off my lawn)
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up