Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9   Go Down

Author Topic: check your state's legislative history  (Read 1770 times)

K3XR

  • Posts: 245
    • HomeURL
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #90 on: March 20, 2022, 07:57:03 AM »

While this thread seems to refer mostly to HOA antenna restrictions this municipal restriction case may be of interest to some. I well recall the case as it played out in the courts and at the time lived not far from Randy and worked him often on VHF/UHF. 

In summary, the municipality of Winslow Township in southern New Jersey passed an ordinance that prohibited radio transmission within the township limits that would interfere with or disturb others.  I know you're saying they can't do that but they did and it was upheld by the highest court it was appealed to at the time. I'm assuming it was cost-prohibitive to resume the appeal.

The court's opinion and a link to more details.
"Plaintiff is an amateur radio operator duly licensed by the Federal Communications Commission. In a prerogative writ action the trial court rejected his attack on a municipal ordinance restricting his right to transmit. On appeal from that decision plaintiff attacks the ordinance as ultra vires, not within the power of municipal government and, in any event, an invalid attempt to regulate in a field entirely preempted by federal statute. We reject those arguments and affirm."

https://www.leagle.com/decision/1981183181njsuper21182?msclkid=2f891c72a85b11eca3e6e07c7ee9cc65


I find it interesting in that apparently the Court determined that Winslow Township was not trying to regulate his transmission(s) but the alleged adverse results such transmissions might have on township residents.
Logged

N6YWU

  • Posts: 362
    • HomeURL
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #91 on: March 20, 2022, 11:29:37 AM »

But CC&R ham radio antenna restrictions DO NOT violate any Federal, State, or local laws.

Doesn't that depend on the exact wording of the CC&R restrictions?  For instance, what if the exact wording is so inclusive that it also restricts cell phone and indoor WiFi access point antenna's?
Logged

K7JQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 2602
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #92 on: March 20, 2022, 01:22:55 PM »

But CC&R ham radio antenna restrictions DO NOT violate any Federal, State, or local laws.

Doesn't that depend on the exact wording of the CC&R restrictions?  For instance, what if the exact wording is so inclusive that it also restricts cell phone and indoor WiFi access point antenna's?

No. Those devices don't have visible antennas that would affect the aesthetics, welfare, and safety of the community. Like baby monitors, garage door openers, etc. Also, cell phones and WiFi are now an integral and essential part  of society as a whole, like the OTARD rule that permits small satellite dishes and other TV antennas. Trying to debate those things in court as an argument to allow ham radio antennas would be a waste of time and money.

Most CC&R's specify "radio transmitting and receiving antennas" anyway. CC&R antenna restrictions are fully enforceable by law, and subject to whatever the HOA Architectural Committee decides otherwise, if applicable.
Logged

N5PZJ

  • Member
  • Posts: 147
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #93 on: May 08, 2022, 03:16:22 PM »

What most people in this forum forget is there are 50 states, seven territorial jurisdictions and to have to contend with court dicta from the multitude of appeal courts. 

Speaking of the USA only, YMMV.
Logged

K6BRN

  • Member
  • Posts: 2231
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #94 on: May 08, 2022, 10:39:50 PM »

So... I just have to ask ...

Has a group of enterprising hams ever created an HOA specifically FOR hams?  Hard to believe NOBODY ever thought of that.

Brian - K6BRN
Logged

K3XR

  • Posts: 245
    • HomeURL
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #95 on: May 09, 2022, 04:28:35 AM »

So... I just have to ask ...

Has a group of enterprising hams ever created an HOA specifically FOR hams?  Hard to believe NOBODY ever thought of that.

Brian - K6BRN

How many hams would be able to finance such a venture? 
Logged

K7JQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 2602
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #96 on: May 09, 2022, 05:46:10 AM »

So... I just have to ask ...

Has a group of enterprising hams ever created an HOA specifically FOR hams?  Hard to believe NOBODY ever thought of that.

Brian - K6BRN

Bandpass filters for all, and keep your fingers on the RF Gain control if the guy two doors down hits the same band as you with legal limit ;). Maybe call the subdivision “Tower Heights”.
Logged

W9FIB

  • Member
  • Posts: 3501
    • HomeURL
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #97 on: May 09, 2022, 06:36:43 AM »

So... I just have to ask ...

Has a group of enterprising hams ever created an HOA specifically FOR hams?  Hard to believe NOBODY ever thought of that.

Brian - K6BRN

Hand me your cash...I can spend it uselessly for you.
Logged
73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

K6BRN

  • Member
  • Posts: 2231
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #98 on: May 09, 2022, 09:54:09 AM »

So... I just have to ask ...  Has a group of enterprising hams ever created an HOA specifically FOR hams?  Hard to believe NOBODY ever thought of that.Brian - K6BRN

How many hams would be able to finance such a venture? 

Me and many others, possibly YOU, too. 

Special interest condo ownership is very common, especially among boating, golf and tennis communities.  And they WERE NOT terribly expensive.   The process  of CONVERTING a small condo association is not that complex nor that expensive, either.  It just takes a time and requires coordination.  There have been decades to do this - so the opportunity has always been there as the housing market waxed and waned, as it always does.

1.  Find a suitable small condo development - 5 to 20 units (there are PLENTY of those on the East Coast and probably everywhere else - I have one unit in a BOATING special interest development)

2.  Buy into one yourself and convince other hams to do so as well.  Housing inventory right now is insanely low - but in normal times its NOT, especially for condos.

3.  Once ham ownership hits 66% or better, amend the bylaws to be ham-friendly and include antennas on community property.  Or even fund a fantastic community station..

The only real reason this would NOT happen is that hams would have to decide for themselves that they didn't want to live next to other hams.  Unlike boaters, tennis players, golfers ... etc.

So - when and where has this happened, and if not, why not?

Brian - K6BRN


Logged

K7JQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 2602
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #99 on: May 09, 2022, 10:40:34 AM »

So... I just have to ask ...  Has a group of enterprising hams ever created an HOA specifically FOR hams?  Hard to believe NOBODY ever thought of that.Brian - K6BRN

The only real reason this would NOT happen is that hams would have to decide for themselves that they didn't want to live next to other hams.  Unlike boaters, tennis players, golfers ... etc.

Brian - K6BRN

I know the last thing I'd want is another HF active ham living within a minimum 500 feet from me, especially another high power contester ;).

Bob K7JQ
Logged

K6BRN

  • Member
  • Posts: 2231
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #100 on: May 09, 2022, 10:51:29 AM »

Hi Bob:

I know the last thing I'd want is another HF active ham living within a minimum 500 feet from me, especially another high power contester ;). Bob K7JQ

...  and THAT is probably the crux of the matter.  Hams really don't like to live too close together.  And sharing even a "super station" during a solo contest just doesn't work.

So perhaps even hams don't want other hams living next to them in tight HOAs (or with grouped antennas, as on Field Day)?  THAT's pretty humorous!

My CA residence is on a tightly packed beach cities lot and there are other hams within 500 feet, one of which is an avid contester.  We've had our moments, but have learned to live with each other.

Now imagine 5 to 20 hams in a compact, tightly packed condo development. Hmmmm.

We have met the enemy - and they are US!  :)

Brian - K6BRN
Logged

N5PZJ

  • Member
  • Posts: 147
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #101 on: May 09, 2022, 11:59:40 AM »

(1981 date) While this thread seems to refer mostly to HOA antenna restrictions this municipal restriction case may be of interest to some. I well recall the case as it played out in the courts and at the time lived not far from Randy and worked him often on VHF/UHF. 

In summary, the municipality of Winslow Township in southern New Jersey passed an ordinance that prohibited radio transmission within the township limits that would interfere with or disturb others.  I know you're saying they can't do that but they did and it was upheld by the highest court it was appealed to at the time. I'm assuming it was cost-prohibitive to resume the appeal.

The court's opinion and a link to more details.
"Plaintiff is an amateur radio operator duly licensed by the Federal Communications Commission. In a prerogative writ action the trial court rejected his attack on a municipal ordinance restricting his right to transmit. On appeal from that decision plaintiff attacks the ordinance as ultra vires, not within the power of municipal government and, in any event, an invalid attempt to regulate in a field entirely preempted by federal statute. We reject those arguments and affirm."

https://www.leagle.com/decision/1981183181njsuper21182?msclkid=2f891c72a85b11eca3e6e07c7ee9cc65


I find it interesting in that apparently the Court determined that Winslow Township was not trying to regulate his transmission(s) but the alleged adverse results such transmissions might have on township residents.

See SouthwesternBell:

SOUTHWESTERN BELL WIRELESS INC SMSA SMSA v. JOHNSON COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS
SOUTHWESTERN BELL WIRELESS INC., fka Southwestern Bell Mobile Systems, Inc. as General Partner of Kansas City SMSA Limited Partnership and Kansas City SMSA Limited Partnership, Plaintiffs-Appellees, v. JOHNSON COUNTY BOARD OF COUNTY COMMISSIONERS, Defendant-Appellant.
No. 98-3264.
-- December 27, 1999


Pierre Letter also,     Local Jurisdictional Courts try to uphold local jurisdictions laws, be careful making some Podunk town court's ruling  the final word,  lots of dicta out there!   Most local areas try to steer clear of Federal Type issues in areas of settled law.
Logged

N5PZJ

  • Member
  • Posts: 147
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #102 on: May 09, 2022, 12:12:24 PM »

So... I just have to ask ...

Has a group of enterprising hams ever created an HOA specifically FOR hams?  Hard to believe NOBODY ever thought of that.

Brian - K6BRN

Preppers, off grid types, hunters and the like group up together, just in different jurisdictions, what might work in one area will not  catch wind in another area!
Logged

W9RAC

  • Member
  • Posts: 63
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #103 on: June 12, 2022, 08:19:08 AM »

I live rural, in a forest on 15ac. I am not governed by antenna ordinances of any H.O.A. and have several wire antennas up in the trees@85' plus a tower. Now, if I lived in an H.O.A. I would expect it to help preserve my property value. I would not want the guy next door to have a car in the drive on blocks, oil spots all over road and driveway or tractor tires in the front yard with flowers planted in them. Antenna towers and wire antennas or hex beams are not necessarily works of art too many. Even as a ham I would not want the guy next door or down the street having wires running everyplace or towers in the yard with flags all over it.

I have worked hundreds of stations in very regulated areas who do just fine both SSB and CW. It's a choice made by the folks living in the H.O.A.'s in the beginning. An agreement made by them. You have a choice. 73 Rich
Logged

K7JQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 2602
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #104 on: June 12, 2022, 12:32:57 PM »

I live rural, in a forest on 15ac. I am not governed by antenna ordinances of any H.O.A. and have several wire antennas up in the trees@85' plus a tower. Now, if I lived in an H.O.A. I would expect it to help preserve my property value. I would not want the guy next door to have a car in the drive on blocks, oil spots all over road and driveway or tractor tires in the front yard with flowers planted in them. Antenna towers and wire antennas or hex beams are not necessarily works of art too many. Even as a ham I would not want the guy next door or down the street having wires running everyplace or towers in the yard with flags all over it.

I have worked hundreds of stations in very regulated areas who do just fine both SSB and CW. It's a choice made by the folks living in the H.O.A.'s in the beginning. An agreement made by them. You have a choice. 73 Rich

IMO, you got it right, Rich. We all have choices. If ham radio is a overriding factor in your life, and you must have the antennas you want, don't move to a HOA/CC&R community. If, unfortunately, financial and other living constraints limit you strictly to one of these communities, then compromises are in order. I've lived in three such communities in the last 30 years, and I *always* found a way to get on the air.

Bob K7JQ
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 9   Go Up