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Author Topic: check your state's legislative history  (Read 1771 times)

K1VSK

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2022, 10:39:11 AM »



Would not it be better for H.O.A.'s to say you may have a "flag pole" style antenna,  2-3 wire antennas, and one 2m/70cm antenna as long as they are not visible from the roadway. This would also let a lot of Hams out of the "closet or attic" as the case maybe. It may also reduce the headaches for the H.O.A.

Gary W1MOW

One size doesn’t fit all. Many homes in most of the the nearby developments abut other yards which are in plain view of many neighbors so the perspective of only street view is just one consideration.

To most people, antennas in any form add nothing to the view and can detract from it  and that includes wires.

All comes down to the same inevitable issue - if you choose to live where rules exist, don’t expect anyone or any community to change them just because of your obscure hobby.
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K1VSK

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2022, 10:44:13 AM »

Quote
.

BTW, have you noticed that in the past few years, we haven’t heard a peep out of the ARRL in their legislative efforts to acquire reasonable antenna accommodations in HOA/CC&R communities? I think even they’ve given up.

Bob K7JQ

Bob
I received an email from one of my Section managers that the ARRL discussed allocating $300,000 for lobbying expenses to advocate for this once again. The proposal apparently hasn’t been implemented yet but the fact they are going about it again in the same way they previously failed is interesting. Not a peep out of the ARRL officially admitting it but I doubt my Section guy would make this up.

Interesting indeed.

Below is an excerpt from an email I received describing the plan under discussion.


“The Legislative Advocacy Committee has recommended that the ARRL form a
Political Action Committee so that ARRL members may legally contribute
to a fund that would go to contributions to political candidates.
Legally, a charitable 501(c)(3) corporation like the ARRL is restricted
from contributing to political candidates.

The Board would need to approve such a measure. I am undecided as to
whether we should be using ARRL money for political candidates. Your
opinion would be appreciated.

For 2022, $300,000 is proposed in the ARRL Operating Budget for support
of the Legislative Action Committee. This is above and beyond our
Washington Attorney fees.”
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K7JQ

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2022, 12:09:26 PM »


I am not sure why "reasonable accommodation" is such a bad thing, and yes you're never going to make everyone happy!

Would not it be better for H.O.A.'s to say you may have a "flag pole" style antenna,  2-3 wire antennas, and one 2m/70cm antenna as long as they are not visible from the roadway. This would also let a lot of Hams out of the "closet or attic" as the case maybe. It may also reduce the headaches for the H.O.A.

Gary W1MOW

"Reasonable accommodation" is fine...until it's deemed (by the HOA or ham) that it's not reasonable ;). Headaches on both sides. I know it's a stretch, but how about a ham that wants a flagpole antenna, 1/2 wave resonant for 80 meters...66 feet with a flag on top ::). I know, you can go shorter with an antenna tuner.

With a total antenna prohibition, the HOA would have less headaches dealing with the one ham (no recourse) than the multiple protests of his "Karen" neighbors, especially those on each side and in back of his house that don't like the eyesore wires or poles compromising their view. And that's not including RFI when you decide to buy an amp.

Unfortunately, this is what hams will have to deal with when buying a postage-stamp size lot with neighbors all around in a HOA/CC&R community. Think long and hard  before purchase.
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WB2KSP

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2022, 12:31:04 PM »

"But let me ask: Besides the antenna issue, are your parents, brother and sister in law, your friend (all in Florida), and your aunt and uncle in New Jersey totally fed up with living in a HOA? Are they all unhappy and discontented with all the CC&R provisions, and constantly bickering with the HOA board that their “rights” have been violated? Like many on this forum depict, even though they’ve never lived in one ::). "


Good question Bob. The answer is that all are happy, but it's not a simple as that. They are all happy because they are not being denied the right to make use of their federally issued license to pursue what is actually a legal activity on their own property.


David,

I’m a little confused about your third sentence. Your original post stated that those people *are* being denied the “right” to make use of their federally issued license…erecting an antenna. Maybe you meant something else, or I’m misinterpreting what you stated.

The fact is that CC&R’s are legally enforceable laws of a community. A sign of the times…that’s just the way it is. You own a car, but you must wear a seatbelt. A motorcycle in some states, you must wear a helmet. A house with CC&R antenna restrictions, you can’t erect an antenna. All subject to reprimand if you don’t obey.

As I’ve said many times before, I’m not choked up with my community’s antenna restrictions, but I do what I feel I must to still happily enjoy my hobby…stealth antennas. Otherwise, I’m very content where I live. To me, ham radio is my hobby, subject to other facets and priorities in my life. I had my tri-bander and tower back in Philly before HOA/CC&R’s came into being. Now in Arizona, I choose what’s available according to my wants and needs. We all have choices, and sometimes compromises must be made.

BTW, have you noticed that in the past few years, we haven’t heard a peep out of the ARRL in their legislative efforts to acquire reasonable antenna accommodations in HOA/CC&R communities? I think even they’ve given up.

Bob K7JQ

It's quite simple actually. Perhaps I should have put it this way, once you've signed the documents to purchase a piece of property, the new owner is GIVING UP his or her rights to make use of their federally issued license on land, they not only own but continue to pay taxes on, be it property tax or HOA fees. If they wish to live in a modern home in a newly constructed community, they either agree not to make use of their HF amateur license privileges from home without as I said, going behind mommy and daddy's back, IE: Sneaking an antenna up behind the group of individuals who have control over your property, or going QRT. Of course, if money is no object, you could always go the rent-a-station route or you could take up hanging around "the club house". As to TVI, that is basically a thing of the past if you're running reasonable power. I run 100 watts and have Verizon Fios as my provider. My wife can watch any TV in the house and not know I'm on the air. She can use the phones while I'm on the air and there's no indication that I am on the air. I know some people do have interference problems, but I can only tell you about my experience.
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K7JQ

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2022, 01:24:42 PM »

David WB2KSP,

You're not giving up your right to *use* your Federally issued license. It's just physically/geographically limited by the laws surrounding your municipality or CC&R governed community, which you agreed to upon purchasing your property. The government and utilities still have use of easement areas on your rightfully owned property, and it's also still subject to governmental zoning restrictions. So, you can own your property, but still can't always legally do what you want on it. Even with no CC&R's and using PRB-1, if you want two towers at 100 feet each, your municipality can limit you to one tower at a maximum of 50 feet. And require exorbitant engineering and permit fees before approval. In essence, by your analogy, you're still giving up your right to operate and use your license the way you want on your property.

You can always *use* your license to operate mobile, go to a park, club station, or pay for remote station usage. You can apply to the HOA for antenna approval and take your chances. Or you can "go behind mommy and daddy's back" and operate with stealth antennas that no one can see. It's done all the time with success.

But as it stands now in the courts of law, it is what it is ;).
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K1VSK

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2022, 02:07:33 PM »

David WB2KSP,

You're not giving up your right to *use* your Federally issued license. It's just physically/geographically limited by the laws surrounding your municipality or CC&R governed community, which you agreed to upon purchasing your property. The government and utilities still have use of easement areas on your rightfully owned property, and it's also still subject to governmental zoning restrictions. So, you can own your property, but still can't always legally do what you want on it. Even with no CC&R's and using PRB-1, if you want two towers at 100 feet each, your municipality can limit you to one tower at a maximum of 50 feet. And require exorbitant engineering and permit fees before approval. In essence, by your analogy, you're still giving up your right to operate and use your license the way you want on your property.

You can always *use* your license to operate mobile, go to a park, club station, or pay for remote station usage. You can apply to the HOA for antenna approval and take your chances. Or you can "go behind mommy and daddy's back" and operate with stealth antennas that no one can see. It's done all the time with success.

But as it stands now in the courts of law, it is what it is ;).

We aren’t “giving up” anything we never wanted. The concept that we somehow give up anything is ridiculous. You and I both live in an HOA in new or newer homes and can operate our radios every day if we want. And if anyone needs an obtrusive antenna to have a fulfilling life, they can easily do that somewhere else.

It’s a choice. These people can either:
1.  live where they want, or
2. don’t and whine as though it’s someone else’s fault.

Here we have a guy who freely admitted he spent one day unsuccessfully looking for a house and now spends the rest of the year feigning unavailability.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 02:11:53 PM by K1VSK »
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WB2KSP

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2022, 02:36:49 PM »

David WB2KSP,

You're not giving up your right to *use* your Federally issued license. It's just physically/geographically limited by the laws surrounding your municipality or CC&R governed community, which you agreed to upon purchasing your property. The government and utilities still have use of easement areas on your rightfully owned property, and it's also still subject to governmental zoning restrictions. So, you can own your property, but still can't always legally do what you want on it. Even with no CC&R's and using PRB-1, if you want two towers at 100 feet each, your municipality can limit you to one tower at a maximum of 50 feet. And require exorbitant engineering and permit fees before approval. In essence, by your analogy, you're still giving up your right to operate and use your license the way you want on your property.

You can always *use* your license to operate mobile, go to a park, club station, or pay for remote station usage. You can apply to the HOA for antenna approval and take your chances. Or you can "go behind mommy and daddy's back" and operate with stealth antennas that no one can see. It's done all the time with success.

But as it stands now in the courts of law, it is what it is ;).


That is why there are those engaged to "fight" for the right to have the law changed. No one is denying how things are today. Years ago if you were a different skin color or practiced another religion communities calling themselves HOA's wouldn't allow some people to move into their community. I am not comparing the two other than to say that laws can be changed. That is what a few of us would like to see happen here. Back in those days there were some people who bought into those communities for just that reason. Somehow with changes made to the law, they survived. Happily, at least at this stage of my life I don't have to buy into those communities. Because I worked in the 24/7 field of broadcasting for my entire career, I worked at least one weekend day for over 40 years.  Now that I am retired with time to get on anytime I feel like it, I am not going to downsize my station, even though it's currently a small station by any measurement.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2022, 02:46:51 PM by WB2KSP »
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K7JQ

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #67 on: January 25, 2022, 03:19:58 PM »

David, I hear you. You're right...you can't compare religious and racial discrimination to overturning a ham radio antenna CC&R. To my knowledge, the only one fighting for the right to have the law (HOA/CC&R antenna restrictions) changed is the ARRL. And we haven't officially heard a blip from them in the last few years, after the defeat of their last of many legislative attempts.

Now, K1VSK informs us of an ARRL proposal to (possibly) create a ham radio P.A.C. to provide contributions to legislator's campaigns, influencing them to overturn HOA antenna restrictions. I can see it now..."Dear Senator Sinema - Here's 20 bucks to change a ham radio CC&R - Sincerely Bob K7JQ" ;). She'd probably say "What's ham radio"? And they're also considering allocation of $300,000 for lobbying expenses. IMO, unless they find a different argument, that would be foolish.

If you're not willing to compromise antenna requirements, looks like you'll be living where you presently are for the foreseeable future. Again, it is what it is.
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K3LI

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2022, 04:58:49 PM »

The VA statue you site may or may not apply according to how it is done.   If it is under your State's property law, it may over ride the HOA.

Where I live, if a covenant is contrary to state property law, it is void.
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N5PZJ

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2022, 08:20:22 PM »

The VA statue you site may or may not apply according to how it is done.   If it is under your State's property law, it may over ride the HOA.

Where I live, if a covenant is contrary to state property law, it is void.


Most folks forget there are 50 States, 7 Territories in the US with their own individual Real Estate Laws and Regulations. 

I would want a Virginia Legal Beagle to render an opinion on the OP item.

Louisiana has a bill before the legislature :   HB 9
Quote
2 To amend and reenact R.S. 9:1141.8, relative to homeowners associations; to provide for the
3 protection of the constitutional rights of persons whose property is subject to certain
4 restrictions; to provide for limitations on community documents; and to provide for
5 related matters.
6 Be it enacted by the Legislature of Louisiana:
7 Section 1. R.S. 9:1141.8 is hereby amended and reenacted to read as follows:
8 §1141.8. Community documents; force of law
9 A. The communitydocuments of residential planned communities shall have
10 the force of law between the homeowners association and the individual lot owners
11 and as between individual lot owners. The remedies for breach of any obligation
12 imposed on lot owners or the association shall include damages, injunctions, or such
13 other remedies as are provided by law.
14
Quote
B. Any provision of a community document which restricts a constitutional
15 right of a lot owner or a person residing in a residential planned community shall be
16 null and void.
Page 1 o
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K0UA

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2022, 09:01:17 PM »

What if there was a CC&R in some HOA that prohibited the storing of firearms on the premises?. Don't think for a minute that many HOA residents wouldn't want that if they thought they could get away with it. Many parents now won't let their children play with other children whose parents have a firearm, no matter how it is stored. Let alone if they know that the parent is a Concealed Carry holder.

Once you start down that road, these examples don't look as "far out there" as you might first think. For those of you that like living in HOA's I am good with that. Very good with that in fact. But I will never live in an HOA, because telling another person what they can do with their own property goes against everything I believe in.

 Yes, some of my neighbors may have some things in their yards I don't particularly enjoy looking at, BUT it is NONE of my business. I don't own that property. I don't live their lives, nor do I have their interests. I would defend to the death their right to have their "junk" in their yards, just like I would defend to the death my right to have my tower and antennas.

So there is my thoughts on HOA's and that is all I am going to say about that.*

*Thanks Forrest.
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73  James K0UA

AF5CC

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #71 on: January 27, 2022, 10:34:56 PM »

This country needs more people like you James!

73 John AF5CC
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K1VSK

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  • Posts: 1949
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #72 on: January 28, 2022, 06:08:50 AM »

The VA statue you site may or may not apply according to how it is done.   If it is under your State's property law, it may over ride the HOA.

Where I live, if a covenant is contrary to state property law, it is void.


Most folks forget there are 50 States, 7 Territories in the US with their own individual Real Estate Laws and Regulations. 

I would want a Virginia Legal Beagle to render an opinion on the OP item.

Louisiana has a bill before the legislature :   HB 9
Quote
2 To amend and reenact R.S. 9:1141.8, relative to homeowners associations; to provide for the
3 protection of the constitutional rights of persons whose property is subject to certain
4 restrictions; to provide for limitations on community documents; and to provide for
5 related matters.
6 Be it enacted by the Legislature of Louisiana:
7 Section 1. R.S. 9:1141.8 is hereby amended and reenacted to read as follows:
8 §1141.8. Community documents; force of law
9 A. The communitydocuments of residential planned communities shall have
10 the force of law between the homeowners association and the individual lot owners
11 and as between individual lot owners. The remedies for breach of any obligation
12 imposed on lot owners or the association shall include damages, injunctions, or such
13 other remedies as are provided by law.
14
Quote
B. Any provision of a community document which restricts a constitutional
15 right of a lot owner or a person residing in a residential planned community shall be
16 null and void.
Page 1 o

The first test when considering any legislation is whether and what it provides or prohibits which isn’t otherwise available.
This does neither. People maintain every Constitutional right before and, if this became LA law, after passage. Nothing changes. States don’t grant nor can they deny Constitutional rights.
And antenna limitations isn’t one.
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K7JQ

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #73 on: January 28, 2022, 08:38:38 AM »

Private CC&R agreements between homeowner and community regarding ham radio antenna restrictions are legally enforceable by an HOA, or complaining neighbor if there is no HOA. Unless such CC&R violates federal, state or municipal law. To date, no such violation has been shown/proven. No one has a Constitutional right to erect an antenna if the agreed upon CC&R law of the community denies it.

Show me an instance where I’m wrong, and I’ll gladly retract my statement ;).
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N5PZJ

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  • Posts: 147
Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2022, 09:07:09 PM »

The VA statue you site may or may not apply according to how it is done.   If it is under your State's property law, it may over ride the HOA.

Where I live, if a covenant is contrary to state property law, it is void.


Most folks forget there are 50 States, 7 Territories in the US with their own individual Real Estate Laws and Regulations. 

I would want a Virginia Legal Beagle to render an opinion on the OP item.

Louisiana has a bill before the legislature :   HB 9
Quote
2 To amend and reenact R.S. 9:1141.8, relative to homeowners associations; to provide for the
3 protection of the constitutional rights of persons whose property is subject to certain
4 restrictions; to provide for limitations on community documents; and to provide for
5 related matters.
6 Be it enacted by the Legislature of Louisiana:
7 Section 1. R.S. 9:1141.8 is hereby amended and reenacted to read as follows:
8 §1141.8. Community documents; force of law
9 A. The communitydocuments of residential planned communities shall have
10 the force of law between the homeowners association and the individual lot owners
11 and as between individual lot owners. The remedies for breach of any obligation
12 imposed on lot owners or the association shall include damages, injunctions, or such
13 other remedies as are provided by law.
14
Quote
B. Any provision of a community document which restricts a constitutional
15 right of a lot owner or a person residing in a residential planned community shall be
16 null and void.
Page 1 o

The first test when considering any legislation is whether and what it provides or prohibits which isn’t otherwise available.
This does neither. People maintain every Constitutional right before and, if this became LA law, after passage. Nothing changes. States don’t grant nor can they deny Constitutional rights.
And antenna limitations isn’t one.

Chew on this restriction and see if it will prevent Radio Operation:

(f) The installation, maintenance or operation of any electric equipment which causes television or radio station's interference is prohibited.

what does Judge Don say?       Source-Lafourche Parish Records Blue Point Subdivision.
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