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Author Topic: check your state's legislative history  (Read 1772 times)

W8LV

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #105 on: June 12, 2022, 06:46:03 PM »

We interrupt this HOA Lapdog apologist status quo program for an important message to open up a well deserved can of "Whoopie-You-Know-What" on the all too deserving, and you know who you are:

Oh Boy, it's been awhile since I stopped by here, you might say I've been kind of "busy" for the past couple of years...

And once again, I see newbies here trying to get advice, only to be met by the HOA Lapdog Lurkers, and Antenna Experts and it's time (again!) to SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT.

So I'm changing hats here for a bit, and am now wearing the FANCY hat of self appointed Moral Sheriff: And it's high time to CLEAR THE DIRTY AIR IN THIS POLECAT FORUM TOWN OF ALL OF THE HOA LAPDOG STANK!!!

You CAN Cowtow to the HOA Man...

OR:You can work towards REMOViNG THEIR POWER by  getting the law CHANGED to ELIMINATE the HOA strangulation of our avocation, and MANY MORE of your harmless pursuits of happiness, not to mention freedom of expression and free speech rights.

Some people are under the VERY mistaken impression that these things can't be changed, and OTHER people are pretending otherwise who know better, but in these here United States: They CAN be changed, and change happens every day.

HOA's relative and very arbitrary dictatorships are eroding: They USED to be able to tell you that you couldn't have a clothesline or put up solar panels, or have a flag. As of late, they can't disallow a flag, but it MUST be a US flag! No State flag. No joint display of say a US and a Canadian flag. No Blue Line flag. No POW flag. No Pride Flag. So how long are HOAs going to be able to limit your freedom of speech and expression when any other said flag can be displayed on that very same flagpole until people say enough is enough?

Some (but not all) of the HOA Lapdogs that reside here have pretended otherwise about change.

But the last time around, the single vote of a Silly Sunshine State Senator (who has since been sent packing by VOTERS) was what it took for HOA Tyranny to barely hold on to their power. And that was the last time. But there WILL be a Next Time, and sooner or later, the HOA chickens ARE going to come home to roost: They know that they are hanging by a thread, and just ONE ruling not in their favour will ELIMINATE a LOT of their really mean spirited pettiness!

Don't put up with HOA Crap. HOA Lapdogs are wanting to have it their way, because they have always had privilege and money to keep the status quo in their favour.

But the New Kids are NOT going to be saying "uncle" to arbitrary HOA lockstep authority, and that's a GOOD THING!

Google HOA on YouTube and see the horror stories about HOAs. And witness? More and more People who are mad as hell, and they're NOT taking it from the HOA Anymore! What's more? More of them are WINNING their battles with HOAs that have been way, way, way, WAY out of control.

Finally, an HF antenna WILL work in an attic that's insulated with foil backed insulation:That's right, I said it! After all, I am just as "qualified" to be an "Antenna Expert" as I am a "Moral Sheriff", so there!

Too many people are discouraged even from experimenting with stealth antenna installations by "Antenna Experts" here. This general crushing of Spirits by antenna "experts" does not please THIS "Self Appointed Antenna Expert/Moral Sheriff" one iota.

Don't let them tell you that if you don't live in an HOA that you can't have an opinion or work for change, because that's crap too.

Don't let them tell you that "well you signed it" so you can't change it, because you CAN.

Don't let them tell you that HOAs are for the most part cooperative with accommodating Hams, because THE FACTS don't bear that out, and I don't have to pull that data out of my shirt pocket, when they don't pull it out of theirs, either… Nice Try!

Make it BETTER. Make it so that an up and coming kid stuck in an HOA gets HIS chance at amateur radio because remember, HE didn't sign anything!

Finally: IN SPITE of HOAs, there WILL be backyard dog boxes, children will play in yards that occasionally sport crabgrass instead of being deadly chemical wastelands of boring golf turf conformity. Backyard grills will sizzle, and the sound of popping Pabst beer cans opening while listening to Ray Charles songs will be heard, and Individuality and Laughter will be celebrated. And QSOs will be exchanged by Free People in Towns and HOAs alike!

We now return you to the Regular HOA Lapdog Apologists at this time….

No Property Value was harmed in the making of this post.

73 DE W8LV BILL
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 07:07:52 PM by W8LV »
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K6BRN

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2022, 11:14:55 PM »

Hi Bill.  I hear your anger and frustration.

So I'm changing hats here for a bit, and am now wearing the FANCY hat of self appointed Moral Sheriff: And it's high time to CLEAR THE DIRTY AIR IN THIS POLECAT FORUM TOWN OF ALL OF THE HOA LAPDOG STANK!!!

Well, OK.  But what's YOUR beef, since you don't live in an HOA community but out in the backwoods of Ohio (been there myself and love it) in a single family home surrounded by - not much.  Plenty of room to put up whatever you want.  That's really a sweet deal - not much to complain about, HOA-wise.

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You CAN Cowtow to the HOA Man...

You mean, pretty much to us, ourselves, hams that is, because we've already established earlier or in another thread, I forget, that hams generally don't WANT other hams next door.  It's been pointed out to me, when I asked about hams starting their own HOA, that an HOA packed with hams would be a nightmare for all operators.  Field day on steroids, 24/7, 365 days a year, in most HOAs where units are very close together.

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OR:You can work towards REMOViNG THEIR POWER by  getting the law CHANGED to ELIMINATE the HOA strangulation of our avocation, and MANY MORE of your harmless pursuits of happiness, not to mention freedom of expression and free speech rights.

Well, as you pointed out (see "avocation") Amateur Radio is a hobby, not a livelihood, so nobody's welfare is being threatened and there's room for compromise, as any ham with an XYL knows.  Not sure what HOAs have to do with free speech.  HOAs are about common property rights agreements between the individuals in the HOA, not free speech.  It seems like you're confusing the two.  One is not the other.

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Some people are under the VERY mistaken impression that these things can't be changed, and OTHER people are pretending otherwise who know better, but in these here United States: They CAN be changed, and change happens every day.

Sure thing.  Vote the right way and put enough pressure on lawmakers and the people can change a lot, and do every day.  But only about bout 12% of the U.S.  population lives in an HOA in the USA, out of the 65% that owns homes.  The other 53% of homeowners don't have a vested interest in this and the 35% that rent or are homeless probably don't care, either.  (easy to look up) So it will take some real special interest campaigning to change things.  The ARRL has tried hard to do this nationally without huge success.  Maybe we need to try harder locally - but also need to avoid shooting ourselves in the foot by being threatening. Action and reaction is not just a law of physics.

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HOA's relative and very arbitrary dictatorships are eroding: They USED to be able to tell you that you couldn't have a clothesline or put up solar panels, or have a flag. As of late, they can't disallow a flag, but it MUST be a US flag! No State flag. No joint display of say a US and a Canadian flag. No Blue Line flag. No POW flag. No Pride Flag. So how long are HOAs going to be able to limit your freedom of speech and expression when any other said flag can be displayed on that very same flagpole until people say enough is enough?

Yep.  HOAs can be real frustrating.  They're largely run by people very much like the average citizen who has no experience whatsoever in civics, leadership, engineering or finance.  And partly because of that, bad things can happen, like the Florida Surfside Condo collapse from what appears to be lack of maintenance, IMO.

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Some (but not all) of the HOA Lapdogs that reside here have pretended otherwise about change.

The first step in taking away someone's rights and dignity is to brand them with a nasty label.  Abuse soon follows.  Is that REALLY your intent?  If not, maybe we should avoid labels and name calling.

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But the last time around, the single vote of a Silly Sunshine State Senator (who has since been sent packing by VOTERS) was what it took for HOA Tyranny to barely hold on to their power. And that was the last time. But there WILL be a Next Time, and sooner or later, the HOA chickens ARE going to come home to roost: They know that they are hanging by a thread, and just ONE ruling not in their favour will ELIMINATE a LOT of their really mean spirited pettiness!

OK.  Well... Good luck with that.  But first you should probably get your logic straight to present in a reasonable, non-threatening way, so you can debate the issues with the people who count - the HOA owners, lawmakers, etc.  The anger part is loud and clear as are the threats, and threats and anger usually shuts down the whole process.

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Don't put up with HOA Crap. HOA Lapdogs are wanting to have it their way, because they have always had privilege and money to keep the status quo in their favour.

I'm confused.  If only wealthy people live in HOAs (I thought they liked mansions), and you don't live in an HOA (you have a stand-alone home- much better - a mansion in comparison), and hams don't really want to operate next to each other anyway, who's hurting?  Other people who WANT to be in an HOA (which is pretty much voluntary)?   I mean, gee, what if you rent and live in an apartment?  Isn't it worse?  At least in an HOA you have full control of what's INSIDE the home.  Seems like it's the rich people who are complaining about other rich people.  Amateur radio's NOT an inexpensive hobby, either.

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But the New Kids are NOT going to be saying "uncle" to arbitrary HOA lockstep authority, and that's a GOOD THING!

I'm not sure who those kids are - not mine (they live in apartments), but there are probably much more constructive things they could be doing and better causes to go after.  This one really doesn't seem to have a huge payoff, life-wise.

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Google HOA on YouTube and see the horror stories about HOAs. And witness? More and more People who are mad as hell, and they're NOT taking it from the HOA Anymore! What's more? More of them are WINNING their battles with HOAs that have been way, way, way, WAY out of control.

Its' funny.  Whenever property is owned in common - a boat, a car, a home, etc., there are always disputes.  Some pretty bitter.  ESPECIALLY  with relatives!  The key to avoiding problems is to never get into that situation to begin with if you don't like the arrangement.  Been there, done that.  Lots of stories about co-owned boats on-line, too.

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Finally, an HF antenna WILL work in an attic that's insulated with foil backed insulation:That's right, I said it! After all, I am just as "qualified" to be an "Antenna Expert" as I am a "Moral Sheriff", so there!

OK.  That's good news.  Because the HOA just chopped down the tree my wire antenna was tied to (CT QTH) because it was destroying the driveway (it really was) and I have to go up in the attic and see if I can manage with a new antenna up there.  I like challenges and experimentation, even at my age.  (I'm not a "new kid")

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Too many people are discouraged even from experimenting with stealth antenna installations by "Antenna Experts" here. This general crushing of Spirits by antenna "experts" does not please THIS "Self Appointed Antenna Expert/Moral Sheriff" one iota.

Everybody is completely responsible for their own choices and actions and their consequences.  That's the harsh reality of life, like it or not.  If somebody runs away because of a few negative voices on a forum, that's up to them.  Suppressing those forum opinions, negative or not, suppresses freedom of speech - and I thought you were in favor of freedom of speech.  Anyone who is discouraged from putting up an antenna needs to actually do some real research and think for themselves - THEN make a decision.  (I did and will continue with the attic antenna) Not doing that is giving up freedom.  Taking responsibility for what you decide and do - What a refreshing thought!  We need to stop posing as victims and blaming others- there's no benefit to mined on that account.

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Don't let them tell you that if you don't live in an HOA that you can't have an opinion or work for change, because that's crap too.
Don't let them tell you that "well you signed it" so you can't change it, because you CAN.

It's a contract, like any other, and can be changed if there is a valid and equitable reason as decided by courts.  That's fundamental to the "Rule of Law".  And without laws, there is anarchy and survival of the meanest, not freedom.

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Don't let them tell you that HOAs are for the most part cooperative with accommodating Hams, because THE FACTS don't bear that out, and I don't have to pull that data out of my shirt pocket, when they don't pull it out of theirs, either… Nice Try!

HOA responses vary as much as the people in them and most people respond to anger as a threat and close the door.  There are better ways.

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Make it BETTER. Make it so that an up and coming kid stuck in an HOA gets HIS chance at amateur radio because remember, HE didn't sign anything!


Soooo.  This is about a teenager living at home in his or her parents HOA, without a job and still in school (hopefully).  Well, the vast majority of those are either doing homework, out playing sports, hanging out with friends or playing video games or on social media sites.  Very few will be pining away for amateur radio, especially HF operation.  I wish there were more!  And the few that are into amateur radio like VHF/UHF better than HF, and VHF/UHF works just fine from any home.  The antennas are tiny, even the fixed station ones.  How do I know?  I'm a Dad, with kids.  VHF handi-talkies were fun and so were repeaters and digital systems.  HF SSB rag-chewing and CW they laughed at.  So - how fast can YOU send and copy CW?

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Finally: IN SPITE of HOAs, there WILL be backyard dog boxes, children will play in yards that occasionally sport crabgrass instead of being deadly chemical wastelands of boring golf turf conformity. Backyard grills will sizzle, and the sound of popping Pabst beer cans opening while listening to Ray Charles songs will be heard, and Individuality and Laughter will be celebrated. And QSOs will be exchanged by Free People in Towns and HOAs alike!

Well, that's what I enjoy just about every time I'm at my HOA, especially in the summer.  Lots of fun talking in the back yard, with our dogs and around the pool (but I prefer Yuengling to Pabst - its America's oldest brewery and beer - a lager, and still tastier than the IPAs and imports, IMO).  We do our own landscaping, BTW.  It's not always the greatest - we're amateurs at it - but it's worthwhile for the social events.  And NO, I've NEVER been on the board of directors.  I get along with my neighbors, for the most part, even if we sometimes disagree and I get funny questions about my "hobby".  Got lucky, I guess.

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We now return you to the Regular HOA Lapdog Apologists at this time….
No Property Value was harmed in the making of this post.

73 DE W8LV BILL

Heh!  Thank you, Bill.  Very appreciated.

Have a good summer and stay cool (in all things). 

Ohio is beautiful country and I miss going there.  But my boy that used to live out there moved back to California, so I have no reason to visit anymore.

Brian - K6BRN
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 11:24:01 PM by K6BRN »
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K1VSK

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #107 on: June 13, 2022, 05:20:36 AM »

Some people have self-esteem issues and this is their therapy, such as it is.
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K7JQ

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #108 on: June 13, 2022, 06:54:24 AM »

Oops, looks like Bill is off his meds again ;D.

Seriously, he has his soapbox, and that’s OK…he’s entitled to his opinion. I don’t know if he’s ever lived in an HOA community to have such a negative outlook, but in my 30 years in three HOA’s, I’ve never had an incident with the Board, and I don’t know of any neighbors that have. I’m sure there are some rogue HOA’s out there, but they’re very few and far between. And the problems you see on YouTube are mostly those that rebel against the rules that they signed up for in the first place! In today’s speak, “Karen” and/or her husband ;).

Yeah, I wish I had better antenna options, but I read the CC&R’s before purchase, and have used stealth antennas…attic dipoles and ground-mounted screwdrivers…with great success. Over 290 countries and decent contest scores…all on CW and SSB. I don’t do FT8…tried it, and maybe could last for 15 minutes at a pop. Like watching paint dry (IMO) ;). But if you like it, it’s a great mode for HOA operating.

Bob K7JQ
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K1VSK

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #109 on: June 13, 2022, 08:35:22 AM »

Oops, looks like Bill is off his meds again ;D.

Seriously, he has his soapbox, and that’s OK…he’s entitled to his opinion. I don’t know if he’s ever lived in an HOA community to have such a negative outlook, but in my 30 years in three HOA’s, I’ve never had an incident with the Board, and I don’t know of any neighbors that have. I’m sure there are some rogue HOA’s out there, but they’re very few and far between. And the problems you see on YouTube are mostly those that rebel against the rules that they signed up for in the first place! In today’s speak, “Karen” and/or her husband ;).

Yeah, I wish I had better antenna options, but I read the CC&R’s before purchase, and have used stealth antennas…attic dipoles and ground-mounted screwdrivers…with great success. Over 290 countries and decent contest scores…all on CW and SSB. I don’t do FT8…tried it, and maybe could last for 15 minutes at a pop. Like watching paint dry (IMO) ;). But if you like it, it’s a great mode for HOA operating.

Bob K7JQ

I think your first impression is correct. Why people are driven to comment on something about which they know nothing or have no experience with is somewhat aberrant.

As someone like you who actually has experience, life isn’t all about antennas and we seem to achieve greater accomplishments than do those who prefer blaming their limitations on other things. And as to the incoherent rants we read from people who don’t or likely never lived in an HOA, their opinion is generally quite uninformed and ironic given they do precisely what they rant against - telling others what they are doing wrong. And he doesn’t even know he is doing it.
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KC3TEC

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #110 on: December 31, 2022, 06:57:54 AM »

Having lived in both hoa and non hoa locations there is compromise if it's handled correctly.
I did ( and still do) small engine repairs.
I discussed this at one of the meetings
And providing for just the cost of the parts only ( no labor fees) I did the repairs on their equipment.

No zoning violation complaints whatsoever!
It never hurts to include, demonstrate, and educate others into the hobby.
There is a certain sense of nostalgia in the hobby especially when history is involved.
Experiencing how bygone Amateurs communicated prior to cellphone and internet can sometimes spark the curiosity that infects all of us in the amateur radio hobby.

This will not happen with all people primarily because if someone adamantly opposes amateur radio.
I find it's mostly because they don't want to appear stupid about it.

If you think that wrong try teaching someone linux
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AI5BC

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #111 on: December 31, 2022, 08:11:15 AM »

HOA's are simple, they are made to keep trailer trash out of the neighborhood like ham radio.
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K1VSK

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #112 on: December 31, 2022, 08:40:49 AM »

HOA's are simple, they are made to keep trailer trash out of the neighborhood like ham radio.
That can’t be correct - I’m in one. Must be some other purpose…..
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K9RJ

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #113 on: December 31, 2022, 10:19:18 PM »

"HOAs are about common property rights agreements between the individuals in the HOA". The unique thing about HOAs is that no one gets a say as to what's in them - except perhaps the original developer but doubt even they read them. They just call their lawyer and tell them to file their 'normal' CC&Rs on the land the developer has bought and off they go. A normal contract (or Agreement) is between two people or entities where they Agree on what they want and write it up. This never happens with an HOA and CC&Rs. They are put in place before there are any land owners other than the developer. This is not an agreement. Being forced to sign it if you want to live there doesn't make it an 'agreement'. While HOAs & CC&Rs probably started out in developments for middle class and up, in some states they are everywhere. The argument that if you don't like an HOA you should 'go somewhere else' makes no sense when every development has CC&Rs. I don't know what the solution is but I will say that CC&Rs in which no homeowner has any real say are the most undemocratic invention in this country. I would like it to be easy for anyone wanting to get into ham radio, especially kids, to be able to put up decent antennas (or have a basketball net on your driveway) and learn about the hobby. CC&Rs can be and are a huge obstacle. I have no personal axe to grind as I have a lot with no CC&Rs. But I do feel there should be some way to either reform or terminate CC&Rs after all the lots in a development have been sold. Happy New Year!
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K7JQ

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #114 on: January 01, 2023, 06:36:10 AM »

But I do feel there should be some way to either reform or terminate CC&Rs after all the lots in a development have been sold. Happy New Year!

To my knowledge in most cases, CC&R’s can be revised/modified/added/removed by a majority, or more (maybe 2/3), vote by the member homeowners. The problem is that in a community of perhaps 500 or more homes, getting them to attend HOA meetings or participate in voting is difficult. In a younger community, most folks won’t even know what ham radio is ;). And the thought of anything aesthetically unpleasant/ugly doesn’t help.
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K1VSK

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #115 on: January 01, 2023, 07:53:19 AM »

"HOAs are about common property rights agreements between the individuals in the HOA". The unique thing about HOAs is that no one gets a say as to what's in them - except perhaps the original developer but doubt even they read them. They just call their lawyer and tell them to file their 'normal' CC&Rs on the land the developer has bought and off they go. A normal contract (or Agreement) is between two people or entities where they Agree on what they want and write it up. This never happens with an HOA and CC&Rs. They are put in place before there are any land owners other than the developer. This is not an agreement. Being forced to sign it if you want to live there doesn't make it an 'agreement'. While HOAs & CC&Rs probably started out in developments for middle class and up, in some states they are everywhere. The argument that if you don't like an HOA you should 'go somewhere else' makes no sense when every development has CC&Rs. I don't know what the solution is but I will say that CC&Rs in which no homeowner has any real say are the most undemocratic invention in this country. I would like it to be easy for anyone wanting to get into ham radio, especially kids, to be able to put up decent antennas (or have a basketball net on your driveway) and learn about the hobby. CC&Rs can be and are a huge obstacle. I have no personal axe to grind as I have a lot with no CC&Rs. But I do feel there should be some way to either reform or terminate CC&Rs after all the lots in a development have been sold. Happy New Year!

What you describe is in fact a contractual agreement commonly known as an adhesion contract. I won’t bother explaining as you can easily look it up. There is no such thing as a “normal” agreement.

Regardless, as has been stated many times, HOAs can and often do grant waivers or modification upon request to vary from the requirement listed in CC&Rs which obviates any need to actually change them. In our average size HOA, in one recent month, over 200 modifications or waivers were granted. Implying all HOA have no option but to rigidly enforce CC&Rs is incorrect.
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KC3TEC

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #116 on: January 01, 2023, 08:49:22 AM »

I live rural, in a forest on 15ac. I am not governed by antenna ordinances of any H.O.A. and have several wire antennas up in the trees@85' plus a tower. Now, if I lived in an H.O.A. I would expect it to help preserve my property value. I would not want the guy next door to have a car in the drive on blocks, oil spots all over road and driveway or tractor tires in the front yard with flowers planted in them. Antenna towers and wire antennas or hex beams are not necessarily works of art too many. Even as a ham I would not want the guy next door or down the street having wires running everyplace or towers in the yard with flags all over it.

I have worked hundreds of stations in very regulated areas who do just fine both SSB and CW. It's a choice made by the folks living in the H.O.A.'s in the beginning. An agreement made by them. You have a choice. 73 Rich

IMO, you got it right, Rich. We all have choices. If ham radio is a overriding factor in your life, and you must have the antennas you want, don't move to a HOA/CC&R community. If, unfortunately, financial and other living constraints limit you strictly to one of these communities, then compromises are in order. I've lived in three such communities in the last 30 years, and I *always* found a way to get on the air.

Bob K7JQ
And most of it is compromise, and including others.
My boat was a 6 person pontoon boat.
Every summer I took neighbors and their kids on small lake and fishing cruises.
I didn't need to but I never had any problems with them either.

But the point of it is, everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but ok for me but not for thee is not congenial to good neighbor relations.
I would love to have neighboring Amateurs
Even if we all had stations, there is 3rd party operations.
Kids I would love to teach classes again.
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AI5BC

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #117 on: January 01, 2023, 09:21:40 AM »

This is why HOA's do not like hams. No one want to see your clothesline on top of your house or trashy car. No one wants to live next door to you.


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K7JQ

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #118 on: January 01, 2023, 09:35:24 AM »

This is why HOA's do not like hams. No one want to see your clothesline on top of your house or trashy car. No one wants to live next door to you.



How did you get pictures of my clothesline and car ;D ;D ;D. Seriously, that car is so ridiculous, it looks photo-shopped ::) ::).
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AI5BC

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Re: check your state's legislative history
« Reply #119 on: January 01, 2023, 10:42:12 AM »


Seriously, that car is so ridiculous, it looks photo-shopped ::) ::).
RU sure?

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