Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.  (Read 1397 times)

KG4RUL

  • Posts: 3781
    • HomeURL
Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2022, 04:03:35 AM »

What remains as the best radio methodolgy to communicate with distant parties?  Anyrhing aside from Simplex?

As usual ....  HF frequencies for long-haul communications (yes, its "simplex").  VHF/UHF for local communications (simplex, too).  CW, SSB or even digital (at low rates) is useful on HF, especially during the rising solar cycle we are now in.  Brian - K6BRN

Don't forget grid-independent repeaters.  My club has two repeaters that are 100% solar powered.  They will be up even if the electrical grid goes down.

Quote
All disasters are local.  So, what would your communications needs be beyond your immediate neighborhood/community?

You guys have definitely lead sheltered lives.  Many emergencies are not local at all - at least not in the sense that a handful of solar powered repeaters will cover them and their comms needs.  HF has routinely closed the gap when that happens.  Just off of the top of my head.... in the USA alone ...

1.  1965 and 2003 East Coast blackouts
2.  2011 Hurricane Irene, which took down much of the East Coast infrastructure for up to two weeks
3.  2017 Puerto Rico in which Hurricane Irma and Maria simply blew away much of the electrical and comms infrastructure on the island.  ARRL was shipping emergency kits out to PR and quite a bit of health and welfare traffic over HF between mainland and PR families happened..

The list simply goes on.

And if you'd like the best option - try a modern satellite phone that supports data as well as voice (Thruaya, Inmarsat, Iridium, etc.).

VHF/UHF repeaters can help - but during weather disasters on the Atlantic and Gulf coasts they are often down, so point-to-point picks up the slack in many cases.

For local disasters, like the 1992 L.A. riots, VHF/UHF repeaters - especially those that interconnect with the phone system via patches, can be very useful.  I used one during that emergency to jump around overloaded/collapsed phone networks and into a working one to contact my XYL on her cellphone.  She and her staff then moved out of the direct path of rioters, just in time.

Glad to hear you've never been involved in a broad area emergency, or just a local area one requiring a phone patch.  It's no fun at all worrying about loved ones in the path of destruction or trying to contact relatives outside (or inside) the weather area via HF and friendly hams just to say you're "OK" and to see if they are, too.  I'm happy my own personal experience has never gone beyond that point.

Brian - K6BRN

Again, why would an individual need to communicate outside your community.  Reality is that you would communicate with your community disaster agencies.  They would communicate with other agencies outside your community.
Logged

K6CPO

  • Member
  • Posts: 839
Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2022, 11:28:40 AM »

Maybe the better question to ask is “How prepared are we / you for a major regional power outage?”  This is more likely given the age and condition of or power grid.  It happens all the time due to natural disasters such as hurricanes, tornados, and ice storms (Texas 2021).  Then there was the east coast black out in 2003 that affected both eastern Canada and the entire northeastern US.

These events result in disruption of internet, cell, cable, fuel, and transportation.  Granted some of these have backup systems, but they only work for so long.

Yes, we Ham’s probably will be able to communicate, we are for the most part a creative lot.  However maybe we should consider how we would fair at home for 7 – 10 days without commercial power or natural gas.

Not only is the power grid vulnerable to a natural disaster, but it's also subject to human interference, whether an accident or intentional. In 2011, shortly after I was licensed, Southern California suffered a protracted power outage that lasted 12 hours in some areas.  This was caused by a technician in Arizona that thew the wrong switch, causing a cascading outage that took out power in Imperial, San Diego and parts of Orange County and even into parts of Northern Baja California. 

The first thing I reached for was my HT and by listening around on different repeaters, I was able to get an idea of the extent of the outage even before the local news channels.
Logged

K6BRN

  • Member
  • Posts: 2231
Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2022, 12:06:48 PM »

Again, why would an individual need to communicate outside your community.  Reality is that you would communicate with your community disaster agencies.  They would communicate with other agencies outside your community.

Asked and answered - see above.

Sounds like you've never been through a serious, sustained emergency - even local.  Community disaster "agencies", such as they are, are generally composed of people just like you and me and have their own families and friends to deal with, usually first.  So they are slow to start up and once they do it takes a while for any relief to arrive.  During the great East Coast blizzard of 1978, it took about a week for food and power to begin flowing again, where I lived.  Our home was literally covered by a snow drift.  A local ham with backup power provided comms outside of New England and was able to send and receive messages from relatives in Florida and California during that period.  And I listened in on my HR-10B receiver.  Local comms was mainly by CB, as many were in cars and battery powered.  VHF repeaters were mostly down.  Up in Boston, food and medical supplies were being flown in by helicopter.

As above, I've already told you exactly why I and many others seek out of area communications in an emergency - to communicate our health and welfare status to friends and relatives outside of our area and bring in news.  It may not bring immediate relief, but it does bring a great deal of comfort and peace of mind.  And an occasional news story going out, too.

This has been a staple function of amateur radio since the ARRL (Amateur Radio RELAY League) was founded.

I sincerely hope you never have to experience this situation.  And perhaps if you've never been in a major, relatively long emergency, you'll never understand it.  Which is just fine - you don't need to.

Brian - K6BRN
Logged

KB8VUL

  • Member
  • Posts: 654
Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2022, 07:16:01 PM »

[quote author=KK4GMU link=topic=135600.msg1254654#msg1254654 date=1644684491
What remains as the best radio methodolgy to communicate with distant parties?  Anyrhing aside from Simplex?
[/quote]

Honestly, your screwed for the most part. There is NO commercially available technology INCLUDING ham radio that can be considered reliable enough to ensure continued communications with 'distant parties'.  And in truth, ham radio is NOT that great at it to begin with for a host of reasons.

First reason is the license requirement and getting those 'distant parties' to get a license and a radio and put up an antenna to talk to JUST YOU???? sorry but I don't believe they will feel it's that important until it is, and then it's too late. 

Second reason is the distant part of 'distant parties'.  What is distant?  Across the state, several states, coast to coast?? Each of these presents a problem.  You ever tried to get a WAS (worked all states) certificate?  It's not as easy as you think.  I am in Ohio, and I have a BIG antenna tower.  You might question this... look me up on QRZ.  It's 240 foot tall,, doubt you have one bigger than that, and I can't at will go grab the mike and talk to a specific state with consistency outside of what normal propagation will allow.  I slam the west coast and all points west of the Rocky Mountains, but if you are in the plains states,,, I talk right over your head literally.  And no LEGAL amount of power is gonna change that.  So if your distant party is in that skip zone from you,,,, forget it.  Not going to happen, at least not with any regularity and possibly not at all. 

So, IF you can get the other party or parties to even get a ham license and operate the radio.  Then you need to sit down and look carefully at the propagation maps and see if there is a band and an antenna design that will get you there consistently.  Then you need to figure out if you AND them can and will install an antenna of that design in your yard and not get the zoning inspector crawled up your butt about it. 

And outside that, you're back to the stone ages. 
Of course you MIGHT be able to pull it off on a satellite pass.  But again, you are gonna need gear at both ends, a licensed operator at both ends and the satellites are gonna be PACKED with other guys trying to do the same thing you are.  So it being a reliable and consistent means of communications is really not possible. 

And you need to sit and think about your scenario.  What it would take to occur, and what length of time it could last. 
If you look at the power grid, it's a hard target. There are a number of places that if attacked by force or a cyber attack, could in theory be disabled for an extended period of time.  The connected Internet / Web or whatever you want to call it is NOT that way.  There are frankly too many cables to cut and even if they were cut, they can be spliced in a reasonable amount of time.  The destruction of a large number of large transmission transformers is not as simple to fix.  And a cyber attack, unlinking the connected internet by it's very nature limits the amount of time an outage can occur.  Router and firewall configurations are backed up and ready to be restored to the equipment quickly if a router is compromised and would return to service as soon as the configuration was restored.  So even a full outage of ALL of the connected Internet couldn't last more than a few days if caused by a cyber attack.  The stupidity you see in movies of routers and switches catching fire and burning up due to hackers gaining access and running some piece of code is movie crap and NOT at all possible in the real world.  There is no software that will damage hardware short of robots that can beat themself apart, but your PC is not ever gonna get some virus that causes it to never work again. 
Logged

KK4GMU

  • Member
  • Posts: 366
Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2022, 02:21:17 PM »

Second reason is the distant part of 'distant parties'.  What is distant?  Across the state, several states, coast to coast?  I slam the west coast and all points west of the Rocky Mountains, but if you are in the plains states,,, I talk right over your head literally.  And no LEGAL amount of power is gonna change that.  So if your distant party is in that skip zone from you,,,, forget it.  Not going to happen, at least not with any regularity and possibly not at all. 

Brute force doesn't help. NVIS does: 50 to several hundred miles at a time.

I missed quoting your first reason:

"No one there to listen."


There will be hundreds of trained EmComm people in every state.

Quote

So, IF you can get the other party or parties to even get a ham license and operate the radio.  Then you need to sit down and look carefully at the propagation maps and see if there is a band and an antenna design that will get you there consistently.  Then you need to figure out if you AND them can and will install an antenna of that design in your yard and not get the zoning inspector crawled up your butt.

I doubt that most city/county govts/zoning officials would give a hang under these conditions.

Quote

The connected Internet / Web or whatever you want to call it is NOT that way.  There are frankly too many cables to cut and even if they were cut, they can be spliced in a reasonable amount of time.  The destruction of a large number of large transmission transformers is not as simple to fix.  And a cyber attack, unlinking the connected internet by it's very nature limits the amount of time an outage can occur.  Router and firewall configurations are backed up and ready to be restored to the equipment quickly if a router is compromised and would return to service as soon as the configuration was restored.  So even a full outage of ALL of the connected Internet couldn't last more than a few days if caused by a cyber attack.

Persistant, repetitive attacks would screw things up for weeks or months. The most vulnerable areas are not cut cables, but via the BGP and DNS gateways. Many books on this topic.
Logged
IC-7100, RSPdx, AT-D878UVII-Plus HT, TGIF Spot

KB8VUL

  • Member
  • Posts: 654
Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2022, 08:22:49 PM »



Persistant, repetitive attacks would screw things up for weeks or months. The most vulnerable areas are not cut cables, but via the BGP and DNS gateways. Many books on this topic.


Oh, so you read some books on hacking the Internet and figure that no one that actually takes care of the DNS and routing tables ever has and they would just reload the same code with the same holes in it that they had before so the tables can be screwed with and the DNS records modified again.  Got news, anything to do with published weaknesses in technology is typically dealt with before it ever goes to press.  IT networks which is what the Internet is built on ain't ham radio.  There are no old farts saying that we been doing it this way for ever so it's the only way to do it.  As security holes are found they are dealt with.  Anything that someone sits down and writes about is KNOWN.  And since it's known, it gets addressed LONG before the book leaves the publisher. 

As far as NVIS vs sloper vs beams.... yeah I know.  And I am not brute forcing anything.  100 watts is all I got and really don't need it for the most part. 

To the statement of 'trained' ham radio operators.. Figured you were talking about family members that were some distance away. 
If you are talking about contacting EMA's and other ARES types, you may well have someone there but propagation is still your enemy depending on where they are. 

And I still will say that your scenario of the Internet going down for weeks from a DNS or BGP hack is still not real viable.  Here's the problem.  If someone breaks it, you restore the configuration the first time and it's back up in a few hours.  If someone hacks it again you figure that part out and lock them out before you fix it the second time.  And you don't leave them the same hole they came through the first and second time.  Basic logic sort of applies here.  If you leave your front door unlocked and come home to find someone sitting at your kitchen table drinking your beer,  are you dumb enough to leave the door unlocked for them to come back tomorrow??  Most people have enough sense to NOT make that same mistake twice.   

Lastly, if you believe that your HOA or zoning inspector is NOT gonna come fine you for standing up an antenna in a restricted area because there is a disaster taking place, your nuts.  They may wait until after the fact, but they will come see you all the same.  And as mentioned before on this very forum by myself and others, the government officials are moving away from reliance on ham radio.  That includes allowing someone to violate zoning and deed restrictions or HOA rules.  You're obviously thinking they care that you are in your mind providing a valuable service.  They are NOT gonna see it that way.  It's the government, they don't operate on logic or reason,,, only on what will get them through the next popularity contest (election).
Logged

KK4GMU

  • Member
  • Posts: 366
Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
« Reply #21 on: February 21, 2022, 08:59:51 AM »

Persistant, repetitive attacks would screw things up for weeks or months. The most vulnerable areas are not cut cables, but via the BGP and DNS gateways. Many books on this topic.

Quote
Oh, so you read some books on hacking the Internet and figure that no one that actually takes care of the DNS and routing tables ever has and they would just reload the same code with the same holes in it that they had before so the tables can be screwed with and the DNS records modified again.
Yes, I read.  Do you?  Here is some well known reality:  Hackers and attackers are quicker than defenses and fixers.  Especially if there is a gang of national or ideological sponsors behind them.

Quote
As far as NVIS vs sloper vs beams.... yeah I know.  And I am not brute forcing anything.  100 watts is all I got and really don't need it for the most part. 
 
Well then, you must have changed your approach since your earlier post when you said:
Quote
...look me up on QRZ.  It's 240 foot tall,, doubt you have one bigger than that, and I can't at will go grab the mike and talk to a specific state with consistency outside of what normal propagation will allow.  I slam the west coast and all points west of the Rocky Mountains, but if you are in the plains states,,, I talk right over your head literally.  And no LEGAL amount of power is gonna change that.
With that degree of bloviating perhaps I misinterpreted your meaning.

Quote
To the statement of 'trained' ham radio operators.. Figured you were talking about family members that were some distance away. 
If you are talking about contacting EMA's and other ARES types, you may well have someone there but propagation is still your enemy depending on where they are. 
I never inferred propagation would ever approach perfection.

Quote
Lastly, if you believe that your HOA or zoning inspector is NOT gonna come fine you for standing up an antenna in a restricted area because there is a disaster taking place, your nuts.  They may wait until after the fact, but they will come see you all the same.  And as mentioned before on this very forum by myself and others, the government officials are moving away from reliance on ham radio.  That includes allowing someone to violate zoning and deed restrictions or HOA rules.  You're obviously thinking they care that you are in your mind providing a valuable service.  They are NOT gonna see it that way.  It's the government, they don't operate on logic or reason,,, only on what will get them through the next popularity contest (election).
That is certainly the pessimist's view.  But having been in local government for 40 years with a half dozen local and county agencies, I can attest that the great majority of agencies will totally ignore, write off, and forget any petty "violations" of that nature during and after a SHTF situation that causes that degree of communication outage.
Logged
IC-7100, RSPdx, AT-D878UVII-Plus HT, TGIF Spot

AC2EU

  • Member
  • Posts: 2793
    • McVey Electronics
Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2022, 09:09:54 AM »

If that happens, just bend over and kiss your butt goodby!

Would you really want to be located? A least use a NVIS antenna if you MUST transmit!

KK4GMU

  • Member
  • Posts: 366
Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2022, 09:38:49 AM »

At least use a NVIS antenna if you MUST transmit!
Our EmComm group will.
Logged
IC-7100, RSPdx, AT-D878UVII-Plus HT, TGIF Spot

KB8VUL

  • Member
  • Posts: 654
Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2022, 09:08:58 PM »

Alright... I have to ask, since we are talking about trying to talk half way across the planet here...
Just what in the world do you think you need to tell someone in California, Texas, Mississippi, Florida or Washington state about YOUR situation in Maine, New York, or Delaware that you think they are really gonna care to hear about if the Internet is really down EVERYWHERE and no one can use their phone's or post on Facebook? 

I really am curious about what this situational piece of information is that you believe they are gonna give a hoot about you have to pass to them?
And lets take the Internet out of it.  Lets call this a general national emergency, YOU pick the disaster, and tell me WHAT they are gonna what to know or that YOUR supported agency is going to want to know about the situation on the other side of or middle of the country? 

Because anything that is going to be at THAT level of importance, the military will have passed through their HF nets and do you REALLY believe that what some HAM operator tells the powers that be at that level they are going to take at face value?  Some hammie running up to the guy in charge claiming the commies are invading ain't gonna be listened to because of the source without verification. 

You need to understand that there are data networks out there that are NOT part of the Internet.  They fully stand apart.  And you can't attack them from the Internet due to that reason.  Some of them include the day traders networks that run from Chicago to New York and other places.  Others can't be discussed due to security reasons.  But they are there linking the country together.  Everything from multiple microwave hops to LEO satellites that are totally divorced from the web. 
Logged

W9FIB

  • Member
  • Posts: 3501
    • HomeURL
Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2022, 04:36:17 AM »

Alright... I have to ask, since we are talking about trying to talk half way across the planet here...

Then why do stations in hard hit islands and small countries communicate outside their area?

Maybe pass news and disaster information outside the effected area.

Maybe to try to set up links with outside agencies to help provide supplies needed locally in the disaster area.

See the problem is most people in the USA seem to think EVERYONE has access to an infrastructure similar to that of large US cities. Rural areas in the US and many small countries do not. So they use ANY means to try to achieve some level of communication to get the help and supplies needed. Supplies may include equipment to get their broken infrastructure repaired so more conventional communications can be restored. And one of those means is to use HR.

So yes, sometimes communicating half way around the planet is what is needed at the time.
Logged
73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

NN4RH

  • Posts: 604
    • HomeURL
Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2022, 08:03:37 AM »


Actually in my experience, people in rural areas and small towns are much better set up for self-sufficiency, for longer, than people in cities. 

Logged

NN4RH

  • Posts: 604
    • HomeURL
Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2022, 08:07:38 AM »

Quote
So yes, sometimes communicating half way around the planet is what is needed at the time.

So the next time we have an ice storm, the roads blocked by fallen trees, and the power out for several days, I'll just fire up the HF rig and ask some random ham in Poland or New Zealand to send supplies.   

Or maybe I should get on HF and "pass traffic" to Verizon (via Poland or New Zealand) to ask them to fix the internet so that I can call the power company to complain about the outage, and then order some bread, milk and toilet paper to be delivered via Instacart ?

.... or maybe it would make more sense to be prepared to be self-sufficient for long enough?
« Last Edit: February 23, 2022, 08:16:02 AM by NN4RH »
Logged

AC2EU

  • Member
  • Posts: 2793
    • McVey Electronics
Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2022, 08:19:56 AM »

This is a very timely thread. Putin seems to be implying cyber attacks. Who knows? Maybe he can shut the whole thing down?

I don't have much faith that that the government has all of the holes plugged considering recent history:
Quote
https://www.zdnet.com/article/dod-disa-discloses-data-breach/


I am quite concerned about escalation if Russia does decide to launch such an attack. That would technically be an act of war!

KK4GMU

  • Member
  • Posts: 366
Re: Best way to communicate if internet down nation-wide.
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2022, 10:42:57 AM »

Our EmComm group just today set up an old NVIS antenna and made several good contacts.  One was 60 miles to the state capital, and another was 400 miles to Arkansas on 40 meters at 10am. No need to falsely believe HF is only good for thousands of miles.

That is good information for us learning how to cover these intermediate distances with HF.

And I repeat, it is not uncommon for foreign espionage and intelligence units to disable a nation's internet infrastructure for extended periods of rime.  We will continue to see this exercise unfold between Russia and Ukraine over the coming days and weeks.

Logged
IC-7100, RSPdx, AT-D878UVII-Plus HT, TGIF Spot
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4   Go Up