Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Contemplating replacing the daily talker station to Icom SDR rigs  (Read 1077 times)

K5TED

  • Member
  • Posts: 294

Thinking IC-7300 and IC-9700 combo. Not a huge investment, around maybe $2600 total.
Thing is, I have to look at the fact that my FT-847, 857D, TS-140S and Flex 3000 are all still working and fine.

All of these radios are at least 12 years old, some much older.

Will the IC-7300 & 9700 be operational in 10 years? 12 years? 15 years? When does an SDR become a boat anchor? I though the Flex 3000 was done, but I have no problem keeping it going with new PC's and legacy firewire cards.

FT-847 and 857D and 817ND are just waiting on a chip failure that is not recoverable. I get that. I waited over 6 months to get the 817ND fixed a few years ago.

Relatively speaking, based on inflation, today's radios are a bargain. Should we treat them as throwaway?
Logged

KF4HR

  • Member
  • Posts: 223
Re: Contemplating replacing the daily talker station to Icom SDR rigs
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2022, 04:02:33 PM »

It's a safe bet that tube radios from the 50's and 60's will continue to be repairable long after radios from 70's through early 2000's will become door stops or parts sales due to specialized IC's, digital displays, etc, failing.  Typically after a model goes out of production, repair support stops sometime later and parts supplies dry up.  We can probably expect the same with all radios, including SDR rigs.  Flex is the only manufacturer I know of that continues to support their legacy models, but odds are, that won't last forever. 

Good to keep in mind most everything will fail over time.  If you opt to keep older radios past their life cycle support, you will eventually own a door stop.  The trick is, knowing when to hold them, and knowing when to fold (sell) them.
Logged

ZL1BBW

  • Member
  • Posts: 1914
Re: Contemplating replacing the daily talker station to Icom SDR rigs
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2022, 09:17:44 PM »

The way things are going, do you want them to be operational in 10 or 12 years.

I thought that my Drake line B & C setups were the best thing out, then I got a IC7410 and realised just how far things had moved, then I got a 7610 and realised again, change is here to stay.

The 7610 came with a 5 year warranty, so at about $1000NZ a year or 2 iced coffee's a week, I will be happy.

As soon as the 7620x comes out I will in there with an order.

JMTCW
Logged
ex MN Radio Officer, Portishead Radio GKA, BT Radio Amateur Morse Tester.  Licensed as G3YCP ZL1DAB, now taken over my father (sk) call as ZL1BBW.

KD0VYC

  • Posts: 2
    • HomeURL
Re: Contemplating replacing the daily talker station to Icom SDR rigs
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2022, 02:58:31 PM »

What about the possibility of buying TWO of something ... let's say two ic-7300's (could be two new ones, or new/used). Benefits might be:

  - if one needs warranty, other takes its place (no downtime)
  - if one dies horrible death, it becomes parts for the next (guaranteeing, sort of, parts availability)
  - when down to one, and the other is fed into parts stream, immediately try to buy another (new or used)

Given ever-shortening warranties, longer time to repair, parts snafu's, and so on, it seems a way to extend the life of something to beyond what the manufacturer can support.

Given that we *expect* our device to last a long time, this seems a way of meeting that expectation, when the manufacturer can't/won't meet it ... they want you constantly moving up to the next best thing, and they want old unit headed to landfill ...

I've done this somewhat successfully with smartphones, and am working it in for generators; both are not easily repairable/recyclable. By buying more (new/used), the life of one or two of them is extended, and there is always one available to supplant a failing/failed one (no downtime). Haven't tackled it yet for rigs ...

Thoughts?
Logged

HAMHOCK75

  • Member
  • Posts: 1297
Re: Contemplating replacing the daily talker station to Icom SDR rigs
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2022, 02:27:02 PM »

Just a few brief thoughts.

1. 50's and 60's gear will remain more repairable. The problem is fewer and fewer people who have the skills to repair them and rising labor rates that make them economically not repairable. Having your own skills is about the only way out of this predicament but fewer and fewer hams have those skills. A good part of the problem is the next note.

2. Older hams are becoming SK. A generation of knowledge and experience is passing from the scene. Being formerly involved in restoration, I know more and more 50's and 60's rigs that become door stops for this reason as they pass to those who do not value them at all.

3. Do you want them to be operational in 10-12 years? This is a very good question.10-12 years from now there may be new modes that don't exist today that become dominant. Today's rigs may not handle newer formats with ease. My general feeling is that as technical knowledge increases exponentially, ham radio will be changing faster now than in the past, which means the time to obsolescence will shrink. Another reason for accelerating obsolescence is below.

4. As ham gear moves from being mostly analog to mostly a computer, they tend to become obsolete faster just like computers and cell phones. As with computers and cell phones performance tends to go up, cost down, and higher integration levels reduce size. My own experience with this is with the 7300 which I used briefly last year until I discovered the more recent, half a shoe box size, 705 has more digital features besides being able to cover up to 70 cm. I now have the 705 connected with wireless control via WiFi. It can be operated anywhere where it can connect to WiFi so it does not have to be on my desk or the same city. Software to do this is all free.

Logged

K7JQ

  • Member
  • Posts: 2602
Re: Contemplating replacing the daily talker station to Icom SDR rigs
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2022, 05:31:26 PM »

IMO, you’re being too analytical. How do you know what your situation will be in 10, 12, 15 years? Unless $2,600 is your life savings, buy the radios and enjoy their many features and advanced performance. I’ve been a ham since 1959, had lots of radios, and thoroughly enjoy both of my 7300’s for the last 5+ years without a hiccup. Life’s too short to worry about what something will be in 15 years. Sell your Yaesu radios to help finance the Icoms. None of them are as good, and I’m betting the Icoms will be more reliable. Like the Nike ad…just do it ;).
Logged

K0UA

  • Member
  • Posts: 9589
Re: Contemplating replacing the daily talker station to Icom SDR rigs
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2022, 09:09:09 PM »

My first 7300 is right at 6 years old. My second one is almost 5.  No problems with either one of them. So far so good. Time flies when you are having fun.
Logged
73  James K0UA

HAMHOCK75

  • Member
  • Posts: 1297
Re: Contemplating replacing the daily talker station to Icom SDR rigs
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2022, 02:07:04 PM »

Like the others above, I recommend trying the 7300.

It is a real pleasure to see all the signals in the band, then touch the screen twice and be almost tuned to that station no matter where it is in the band. For CW, touch, touch, "autotune" and the CW station is tuned to the frequency set for the sidetone. No need to use the tuning knob at all.

There are many 7300's for sale here and on other web sites like QRZ.com, typically for $800-950 so it is not for everyone.

I bought a used 7300 and used it for several months. I liked the experience but when a local 705 turned up for sale, I bought it. Since I have a 2KL amplifier, the qrp 705 with amplifier made the 7300 redundant. I sold it recently for about what I paid for it.

For me, the 705 opened another new door just like the 7300. Having a mobile SDR, I could see repeaters I had never seen before or that my scanning rigs like the Yaesu FT100D missed. The 705 can scan for the tone frequency of the repeater which eliminated the need to look up those tones.

It did result in a bit of an embarrassment one time. I heard an interesting conversation on a repeater I had never been on. I looked up the repeater but could not find it listed. I scanned the PL tone and started talking the the participants only to discover that it was a "closed" repeater. In other words, by invitation only. They were very nice, polite people so it was still a good experience.
Logged

KA4WJA

  • Posts: 1601
    • HomeURL
Re: Contemplating replacing the daily talker station to Icom SDR rigs
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2022, 10:34:21 AM »

Ted,
I know I'm late to the party here....someone just sent me the link to this discussion. :(

And, I'm going to come at this from a very different point-of-view (hope you don't mind?)

The short answer is, Yes....go-for-it!
Sell the '847, '857, '140 (and yes, maybe even sell the Flex 3000, but that's optional...depends on your personal choice, budget, etc.)....
And, buy the '7300 and '9700....


Thinking IC-7300 and IC-9700 combo. Not a huge investment, around maybe $2600 total.
Thing is, I have to look at the fact that my FT-847, 857D, TS-140S and Flex 3000 are all still working and fine.

Others here have given you good advice / recommendations....
So, why in the world did I decide to "pile on" (certainly not to just show ego, nope...)

Well, I'm not an SDR fanboy....I don't own a '7300, 7610, nor '9700....and likely never will.  (but, I do not think they're somehow "evil", nor are leading to the downfall of ham radio....nope, they're just not my cup-of-tea)
But, I think you, and more importantly everyone that surrounds you on-the-bands, will be very happy you "upgraded">  :)

You see, in today's standards of ham radio transmitters, the IC-7300's transmitter is pretty good...in regards to transmit IMD / spectral cleanliness it's not as good as the radios of decades ago, but by todays standards, it's good!

And, the FT-857d is one of the worst in regards to transmit IMD / spectral purity made in the past 40 years (see Nov, 2004, QST)   With the '847 and '140, both just a couple dB better (but still pretty bad)....and the TS-140 is notorious as splattering worse if you have the processor on (I've heard it recently on 80m, and it can be rather unpleasant) 
{btw, the Flex 3000 isn't bad....close-in, about the same as the '7300....but the '7300 is better on the higher-order products..}


So, like I wrote up front....taking a different view of things....yes, go-for-it!  Sell the '847, '857d, and '140....and buy the '7300 and '9700.
And, have fun!  :)


73,
John,  KA4WJA
Logged

K1KIM

  • Member
  • Posts: 1556
    • HomeURL
Re: Contemplating replacing the daily talker station to Icom SDR rigs
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2022, 10:50:47 AM »

I have Kenwood 520s', 820, 430s, and a few newer SDR radios along with the 7300.

My go to is the 7300, but just yesterday I did some DXing on the old hybrids for fun.

Life can be unpredictable.............get what you can and enjoy! It all can be gone in the
"blink of a young man's eye"
Logged
So Many Toys.......So Little Time!

WB8LBZ

  • Member
  • Posts: 285
Re: Contemplating replacing the daily talker station to Icom SDR rigs
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2022, 07:04:07 AM »

Unlike John, KA4WJA, I am a SDR fanboy. I have friends that have 7300 but I went for the 7610 and the 9700. I bought the 7610 when owners were running for the exits. I use the I and Q output for display spectrum on a 23 inch computer screen via HDSDR. The 9700 I got as soon and it came in. I have used it on 2, 440 and 1.2 GHz. I use them both as daily talkers. As soon as something better comes out I'll find a new home for these but I don't expect that to happen anytime soon.

73, Larry  WB8LBZ
El Paso, TX
Logged

WO7R

  • Member
  • Posts: 6042
Re: Contemplating replacing the daily talker station to Icom SDR rigs
« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2022, 10:36:46 AM »

Quote
but I have no problem keeping it going with new PC's and legacy firewire cards.

Good luck with that in the future.  Sometime in the next 10 or 15 years, maybe sooner, firewire is going to stop happening.  Even back in the day, the Flex rigs (3000, 5000) were fussy about firewire -- not all of the cards worked.  I owned a 5000 and I know of what I speak.

I think the honest answer is that the smart money is on an endless upgrade cycle.  Sell off the old rigs (consider this even if you are a collector) and buy new every five or seven years.

For instance:   A rig without a USB interface for rig control and sound is already downstream of "best" practices.  Resale values of rigs without them are gonna take a relative hit.  And, the hits will keep on coming.

The IC 7300 put a lot of pressure on old rig prices.  We haven't seen the last 7300 "revolution".  Another will come in three or five years.  It will have features that everyone wants at a near entry level price.  It will lower the resale price of whatever inventory you have.

I worked in the computer industry for 35 years.  On the hardware side, they gave up on discrete parts replacement about 30 years ago.  Replacement parts began to be various forms of card subsystem (e.g. PCI cards and whatever was analogous in the farther past). 

It's getting to the point where the replacement unit is at the level of PC Motherboards.  Nobody can be bothered with smaller scale repairs anymore.  It isn't just the retiring baby boomers.  It's the whole electronics industry.  Remember how many of us struggled with surface mount?  The industry isn't bothering with such stuff.  Soldering individual chips is not a human activity anymore.

So, when it comes to features and repairs, we're all going to become appliance operators.  Those willing to "easter egg" old rigs for working boards, frankensteining boards from several dying rigs to keep one rig alive are welcome to the struggle.

The economics, already, are in favor of regular rig turnover.  The only question is whether we will recognize it and sell out in time to those who don't or are willing to hang on a little longer.
Logged

KD7RDZI2

  • Member
  • Posts: 689
Re: Contemplating replacing the daily talker station to Icom SDR rigs
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2022, 06:03:03 AM »

I don't know the IC-9700, but the TX audio in the 7300 is one of the best I heard with its stock mic. But the TS 140 is not bad at all to my ears. So I am not totally sure a very high IMD measurements can be really perceived. Bad audio and splattering I think is usually due to other factors and bad settings in the radio, overdrive or linear that are not very linear. Audio reports are important but if you have a chance to hear your own modulation is even more important  (transmitting to a dummy load an listening to a receiver without antenna or via websdr). You don't need to sound classical music, 'punk' modulation can be fine too ;D
« Last Edit: June 19, 2022, 06:07:39 AM by KD7RDZI2 »
Logged

AI5BC

  • Posts: 456
    • HomeURL
Re: Contemplating replacing the daily talker station to Icom SDR rigs
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2022, 09:44:55 AM »

Look at this way. You are in the market for a new TV. Do you want an old B&W model with CRT and tubes because it is serviceable, and you can make it work a long time if you do the work?

If you choose B&W, be sure to buy your friends a tee-shirt.
Logged

K7LZR

  • Posts: 395
    • HomeURL
Re: Contemplating replacing the daily talker station to Icom SDR rigs
« Reply #14 on: June 22, 2022, 10:04:54 PM »

I went through this same thought process last year. Here is my story & solution.

I had tended to lean toward newer rigs for the longest time - IC-7300, Flex SDR, Xiegu G90 SDR, FT-991A, and other new rigs. And then one day, I saw for sale a 1983 vintage, non-working Icom IC-745. I had heard of them but never owned nor used one.

It was cheap and on a whim I took a chance and bought it. It had many problems so I dove in and fixed everything and emerged with a very nice and well performing radio. After using it for awhile, I realized just how much I began to enjoy it, and the piece of mind that I can repair most anything which may go wrong with it after having just repaired it and learning in-depth most all of the hardware.

Almost all parts inside the IC-745 are common and still available both new & used. Some are generic and so still easily available new and some as new-old-stock. Many used available also. Even the microprocessor chip is still available. So no worries.

So as much as I loved the newer SDR rigs, I sold everything and bought a second near-mint IC-745, and then a stock of known-good spare boards and other parts for both. For visual band cruising, I have a couple of SDRPlay RSPdx receivers.

No CAT control on the IC-745 but I don't miss it as much as I thought I would. Simple audio & PTT interfacing allows me to use it on digital modes and it works just as well as my former CAT controlled rigs did.

And so between my vintage Icom rigs and the SDRPlay RX, I get the best of both for my needs.

So the point here is that these older Icom rigs perform just as well - for me anyway - as the new rigs but without the endless menus and touch screens etc. and I will never need to worry about keeping them fully functional.

I realize that my approach isn't for everyone, but I'm happy. If I wanted, I could buy a brand-new mid to high end rig. But for some strange reason I elected to take a step back instead and I'm really glad I did :).
« Last Edit: June 22, 2022, 10:13:49 PM by K7LZR »
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up