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Author Topic: Coffee Maker RFI Keurig K-Elite is an RFI generator! (but NOT the Keurig K-Slim)  (Read 308 times)

KA4WJA

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Hello to all,
1)  Spoiler alert:  I fixed the problem....and this is why I'm writing all of this, so others may learn from my experience.


2)  I'm not a coffee drinker (I'm an Iced Tea, or Lemonade, guy) but, a couple weeks ago I got my 101 year-old Mom a new coffee maker as a Mother's Day present (along with flowers, dinner and a card....but none of those things caused RFI)...
Which should be a good thing....but, since I spend most of my time there these days and have a temporary station set-up there, I found a whopping increase in my HF noise level from this blasted RFI-generator (which is marketed as a coffee maker).

I bought a new (highly-rated) Keurig K-Elite model, with digital clock, timer, temperature control, etc..



And, my normal daytime noise level rose from its usual S-3 to S-4 (~ -107dbm to -101dbm) on 80m, to S-9 +10db (~ -62dbm)!!  Argh!!
That's over 40db - 45db increase in my noise level!!

And, this was a fairly steady / constant S-9+5 to S-9+10, from ~ 3.1mhz up thru ~ 5.5mhz....rolling off quickly above and below those frequencies to ~ S-4 below 3mhz, and ~ S-3 to S-4 above 6mhz...
(if the noise wasn't so strong and consistent, I'd have looked at it on my analyzer, to see the pattern/response, but figured I'd try some mitigation first)

{ yes, I have measured the calibration of my TR-7's S-meter....at ~ 6db/S-unit and -73dm = S-9....see my exact numbers on https://www.qrz.com/db/KA4WJA }

(btw, my daytime 40m noise level only went up 6dB to 10dB....from its usual S-1 or S-2, up to S-3 to S-4 or so...and, little change to my S-0 to S-1 noise level on 20m, on a 40m/80m fan dipole)

{Please note that I've been meticulous in eliminating RFI producing devices and/or reducing RFI from devices in the house, so that my receive noise levels, even here in a suburban neighborhood, are pretty low by today's standards....
And, while my antenna is stealthy (runs just over the roof, at an average height of only 13' - 18')...it is a 80m/40m fan-dipole, that is fed with new RG-213 going thru the attic, to a DX Engineering "line isolator" (common-mode-choke) outside, under the roof eave.....then new RG-8x up to a Balun Design 1116 model 1:1 current balun....s
So, this antenna is only 15' above and ~ 20' - 25' linearly away from the kitchen counter where the coffee maker sits...not good, but the best I can do here, at this time.}


3)  My RFI mitigation...
I had some Mix 31 torroids, and some clamp-on mix 31 split-ferrites as well...
So, I wound 5 or 6 turns of the Keurig K-Elite power cord thru one 2.4" dia mix 31 torroid, and clipped-on one Mix 31 split-ferrite....as the darn thing's power cord was so short (~ 2.5') and I needed enough cord to reach up from the counter ~ 10" to the outlet, this was the best I could do....and, thru experimentation I found 5 -6 turns thru the torriod and two mix 31 clamp-ons, gave me the best [sic] results, reducing my 80m noise levels down to S-8 to S-8 and 1/2....approx 14db - 16db reduction....
Which might sound acceptable, but considering this was still ~ 30db higher than I had with the new Keurig unplugged, I had to do better (a LOT better)!

So, I bought a nice heavy-duty 6' extension cord, and wound 6 turns of it thru a Mix 31 torroid, another 6 turns thru another Mix 31 torroid, and 6 turns thru a Mix 75....all in series....and, what-da-ya-know, it INCREASED the RFI being radiated and my noise level went UP to S-9 (still less than the unit without any ferrites, but weirdly just this extra length of power cord gave it some more of an "antenna" to radiate the RFI)....
Just for the heck, I also tried using a 10' extension cord, with the same three torroids (two Mix 31's and one Mix 75) and with three Mix 31's, and the results were about the same, still had lots of RFI, with 80m noise levels of about S-9!! 
I also tried winding about 8 - 9 turns thru each of three torroids, and also stacking a couple torroids (like you'd do for higher-power RF applications) just to see what the results would be....and, just as I suspected, about the same...S-9 noise levels...

Overall, the best I could do was....6 turns of just the coffee maker's power cord thru one Mix 31 torroid, and two additional clamp-on Mix 31 ferrites...getting my 80m noise level down to ~ S-8 to S-8 and a half!  :(

Of course, unplugging the darn thing solved the RFI issue....but the whole purpose was so its clock/timer would come-on and pre-heat the water at a specific time, and all my 101 year-old Mom needed to do was press the Brew button and she'd had a fresh cup....and, then all she'd do is put in a new K-cup for her second cup of morning coffee....s

So, if I unplugged the thing, I needed to go plug it in after I got off-the-air, re-set the clock and timer, etc....a pain in the a**!! 
But, I did this for a few days...


4)  My final solution though was even easier...

I returned the blasted RFI-generator (the Keurig K-Elite), and exchanged it for a less-expensive / less-featured model, the Keurig K-Slim (with NO clock, NO timer, NO temperature control, NO digital display, etc.)..



And, what-da-ya-know, NO RFI from the new Keurig K-Slim coffee maker, and my 80m noise level is back down to S-3 to S-4!


5)  The lessons I re-learned here (and that I hope others will grasp as well) are:

a)  like most "made-in-China" crap these days, you pays 'ya money and ya' takes ya' chances!  Some might be okay (like the Keurig K-Slim), but I've found a lot of this stuff is just crap!   
With my best friends working in EMC / Compliance engineering for many years and always telling me most of the crap out-of-China, and India, Pakistan, Singapore, Malaysia, etc., never even gets tested (counterfeit or falsified reports) , or the test reports are changed/falsified...and, while FCC is always in their lab here in Florida, checking on them / checking not just the cal tags, etc., but checking/verifying their procedures, etc....but the US Gov't does nothing about verifying the stuff imported with lab tests from overseas are actually good / valid test results!
Heck, many of these companies "self-test" / "self-report"...two guesses on how many actually do ANY testing at all, and the first guess doesn't count!....
Oh well, that's life in our big world these days... :(


b)  No matter how good ferrites are, no matter how many turns thru a torroid you make, even if you open-up the unit and try to put some caps in there along with some small ferrite beads (voiding warranties and violating any UL certifications....something I wasn't willing to do for a heating appliance that my 101 year-old mother would be pouring water into!)...even if you do all of that, some of this crap from China is so bad that it just needs to be thrown in the recycle bin...
Or better, NEVER be allowed to be imported at all! :(


c)  {On a side note, some satellite operators like Iridium and INMARSAT have engineering groups that are working with some gov'ts, to encourage them to actually enforce their own import and communications laws, as their satellite link-budgets (at L-Band) have already been adversely effected by the rise in terrestrial RF noise coming from some specific regions, like the Far East, Africa, and surprise...also central Europe!  They are worried, as it is getting worse every year...and, heck even Starlink is now looking at their Ku and Ka band link-budgets, to see how this might adversely effect them in the near future...luckily the US and Canada haven't yet had the penetration of these devices to the extreme that other regions of the world have, so as of today, neither Directv or DISH network have had their uplink/downlink budgets effected...yet!

But, what is even worse....COSPAS/SARSAT (the international organization that runs the Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacon (EPIRB/ELT) network), that controls all the monitoring of emergency beacons from planes, ships, and individual users, worldwide (they ALL operate at 406mhz), has already seen a 10db - 15db+ reduction in their link-budgets in Far East / SE Asia area, and ~ 6 - 10db reduction in Africa and Central Europe!   (so far, they've been able to "make-do", as they've had significant margins built-into the systems....and are designing new on-orbit systems for future launches to help mitigate this...but...)  But, they have already notified the manufacturers of beacons of changes in deployment procedures needed, in order to raise confidence that a beacon alert signal will actually be heard / received / decoded by the existing COSPAS/SARSAT satellite system (they are all new, modern, 21st Century satellites)!

So, what do think....do you wish to be in a big jetliner or a big ship (or a small sailboat, like mine), and wonder if all the made-in-China crap that you just bought and have running at home, will block-out your emergency distress alert signal from a beacon when your plane goes down, or your ship has a fire, or your small boat is in distress?

Do you think your new coffee maker, or new smart-phone charging stand, or new smart-TV, etc. etc. is worth your life, your family's life, etc???

Just saying, maybe we should all "re-think" the ethics of using "switch-mode power supplies that have a knob on them" so you can "move" the interference away from the frequency your using to someone else's frequency?

Maybe now, some of you will see my point?  This is just wrong!  Pollution is wrong....it's not politics, it's just wrong!  :(

RFI is pollution!

Just like throwing used motor oil in the ocean, or tossing your plastic trash out in an empty field somewhere....just 'cuz you don't see it now, doesn't make it right!  Argh!}



I do hope my experience here helps some....and, even more, I hope some will now see my point that we hams are doing this to ourselves! 
We are just like the proverbial frog in a pot of water on the stove, and someone is slowly turning up the heat on the burner, so we don't know we are in boiling water until it's too late....well, it's not too late, yet....get rid of the RFI producing devices in your home, in your office, in your place of work, in your car, boat, RV, etc...
And refuse to buy RFI-producing devices (and write email to companies that make that crap....I sent email to Keurig yesterday)..

73 to all,
John,  KA4WJA


BTW, I do feel similarly about IMD, as I do RFI....willy-nilly IMD is polluting our airwaves too!  Just that few seem to understand or care?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 01:28:05 PM by KA4WJA »
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WB8VLC

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I can agree 100% as to your assessment of the total crap designed electronics polluting the airways especially as I sit here at work chasing RFI issues to avionics radios caused by an assortment of crap also being used in airplanes or being used in ground based applications that are causing receiver blockage in aircraft. 

Things that I have found to generate similar excessive levels of RFI for example are aftermarket Ipad and Iphone chargers purchased on That internet site that has the same name as a large river in South America.

Some information first on Ipads/Iphones and other similar devices used in avionics these days. Iphones and Ipads and similar products are now acceptable to being used in avionics by the FAA as they are used heavily used as Electronic Flight Bags in avionics but of course at this time there is no government agency that I am aware of who has performed any RFI emissions tests on these devices nor on the assortment of adapters used in these consumer grade products.

Other RFI generators that look to be designed by monkeys are any assortment of Bluetooth headphones that mysteriously emit high levels of RFI thereby blocking Avionics GPS, ADS-B receivers and Aviation AM Com receivers along with ground based LED lighting in businesses near airports.

One big RFI emitter that I recently chased was a buildings LED lighting that was 1/4 miles off the north west runway of an airport in the capitol city of  of a pacific Northwest state south of washington state.

This RFI disgusting LED lighting system was found to block AM com receivers in aircraft on takeoff even when the aircraft was line of site and less than 1/8 mile from the tower.

 Everything that I have identified over the past 32 years of aviation radio designs has stirred zero, and I say zero interest by either the FAA nor the FCC as to resolving this type of interference to avionics radios and such.

My take on this is that the government agencies responsible for catching this RFI emitting crap do not want to be bothered with RFI complaints no matter what.

Unfortunately in land based applications as you have found and my 30 Plus years of tracing down RFI in Aviation based cases my conclusion is that we are left at the mercy of the cheap Off shore designers with zero recourse and zero help from our government agencies at resolving these issues.

In my case studies, cheaply designed electronics that equal low low prices sold at stores such as that South American river sounding chain and others such as Wally World, Crapco (you can figure out the real name of these chains of course by reading between the lines) Tarjay and other stores that deal with low low prices are more important that a product is sold as cheaply in cost as possible as opposed to being designed properly.

Of course the real names of these retail chains selling this uncertified crap were altered in my response so as not to embarrass them but I'm sure the average reader can figure out their real names.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 01:54:00 PM by WB8VLC »
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GRUMPY2021

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My mitigation is a 1931 WearEver pecolator.  Model number 3012 for those that need details.  Google can help you with the rest.   ;D
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VE3WGO

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what's even worse is that the companies whose names are on these RFI emitters don't have a clue what they are putting their names on because the devices are being designed and spec'd by somebody else, like Hisense or other low-cost OEM manufacturers.

So if you complain to Keurig, they likely don't have a single person in the house that will know what you are talking about.  They only know how to roast coffee beans and run finance spreadsheets.

Our only recourse is to identify these offending products to the FCC, then make note of the product, its defect, and the fact that FCC has been notified, in a post on a prominent social outlet like YouTube, Facebook, or let it camp on some already viral twitter thread.  The clickbait title of your social post is even more important than the message.

73, Ed
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KA4WJA

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Mike, WB8VLC,
I understand your frustrations!

I see this in maritime electronics / maritime communications all the time...
But, the USCG (US Coast Guard) is surprisingly tough if they find gear on "inspected vessels" or commercial vessels (not small private yachts), that interferes with comms or navigation equipment....their crews usually rip it out and toss it in an impound bin / dumpster!  And, it is never given back...(true!)

For "uninspected vessels" / private yachts, the USCG posts advisories and notices-to-mariners (just like NoTAms)....
And, a recent one that comes to mind, is the USCG notice / warning that LED Navigation Lights (particularly those that are installed near the VHF-FM Maritime antenna) can interfere with both analog-FM-voice and digital, VHF communications, including Maritime AIS (similar to aviation ADS-B)....and significantly effect maritime safety.

The notice / warning also contained info and recommendations on testing your system to prove performance is normal, and recommendation to replace defective lights immediately.

(again, this ain't the FCC or even the FAA....each of these guys carry automatic weapons, everyday.....and, they're not shy about using 'em!  So, when you get a USCG safety notice, or even worse a warning, you do take it seriously...well, at least I do...)

Most of the LED lights that caused these problems (RFI so strong, that it wipes out reception of 156mhz, VHF-FM!) are the made-in-China stuff that the FCC allows to be sold here....
Of course, as we know, it's not the LED itself, but rather the voltage regulator that generates the RFI and with the long power wires being a nice antenna, these crappy things can radiates quite a bit!  :(

{Fyi, I have LED Navigation Lights that do NOT produce any RFI....not on VHF, not on HF, nothing...oh, and I also have solar panels within inches of my HF antenna (and within a foot of my secondary VHF antenna), and MPPT solar charge controllers within inches of my HF radio and VHF radios....and have no RFI at all from this, except for a couple low-level birdies above 18mhz, but nothing that ever causes problems...}



Grumpy,
I'm fully aware of the RFI coming from microprocessors, etc....which of course, didn't exist in 1931...so, I'm going to assume that you intended some humor here? 
But, as a non-coffee-drinker....and, someone who is trying to keep his elderly Mom safe....it's kinda' lost on me.  :(
My mitigation is a 1931 WearEver pecolator.  Model number 3012 for those that need details.  Google can help you with the rest.   ;D


To be clear, I was attempting to improve the safety of my 101 year old Mom, by getting her a coffee maker that is easier and safer for her to use....and, was surprised by the amount of RFI that new K-Elite radiated!

The coffee maker I was replacing (a Cuisinart) was good for most, but it was big and heavy, and almost impossible for her severely arthritic hands/fingers to use ---- safely.


And, she also has a big 36 cup WestBend unit in the pantry, but that's even worse in regards to ease and safety....



So, while I don't mind a good laugh....and, I appreciate your experience with a 1931 coffee pot, it doesn't really help me much.   
But, thanks for trying....(I spent today dealing with insurance company....so, in comparison, RFI and eham is a walk-in-the-park!)



73,
John,  KA4WJA
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 04:52:39 PM by KA4WJA »
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SWMAN

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No RFI on those old percolators that is for sure. Reminds me of the one my mom and dad had a long time ago back in the 50s and 60s. Good stuff.
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GRUMPY2021

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I guess I didn't understand your post.  I wasn't trying to help you...   "You said in your first sentence:  Spoiler alert:  I fixed the problem....and this is why I'm writing all of this, so others may learn from my experience."    I'm just sharing how I fixed my RFI problem with my coffee pot.
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SWMAN

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 I solved my RFI problem with my coffee pot, I now use instant, works like a charm now.
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