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Author Topic: Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?  (Read 529 times)

CTC60025

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Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?
« on: June 20, 2022, 09:03:53 PM »

Our grown children have moved to Vancouver CA, Salt Lake City UT, Milwaukee WI, and Cambridge England while we are planning our move from Chicago to Nashville. It has occurred to me that if our cell phones and Internet went down for any length of time, we would have no way of communicating with them save the postal service...if it was still working. So I began to look for emergency radios and stumbled upon ham. I've watched a dozen or so YouTube videos, and read some articles. There is clearly a lot to learn. So my question is this...would it be possible, if our children and I have the right ham equipment, designate a specific band, channel, and time of day to be able to communicate with each other consistently should the need arise? Thx.
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N2MG

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Re: Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?
« Reply #1 on: June 20, 2022, 09:50:55 PM »

This is a question that prepper types always ask and the answer is… it’s complicated. More complicated than a simple Internet answer can provide.

You’ll likely need HF capability. What’s HF?

Look it Up.

There’s a lot to learn about HF propagation.
What’s propagation?

Look it up.

You and all your contacts will need a general class license to do this legally. 
Why a general class license?

Look it up.

You’re going to wait until SHTF so you think you’ll not need a license? Good luck learning your stuff then.

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Mike N2MG
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WA6III

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Re: Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2022, 10:33:29 PM »

So my question is this...would it be possible, if our children and I have the right ham equipment, designate a specific band, channel, and time of day to be able to communicate with each other consistently should the need arise? Thx.

Well, maybe!

You can start by getting you and your kids appropriate amateur radio licenses.  Then since the sunspot cycle is becoming such that communications is possible between the locations you  mentioned (but probably NEVER all of them at the same time) , you'll have to ensure that each of you have appropriate equipment and multiband directional antennas to make it happen.

Then all of you will need to become proficient in operating that equipment.

It will likely never be "consistent" since HF propagation is not consistent.....I.E> You may be able to communicate with the one in SLC and maybe The one in Vancouver, BC but not be able to even hear the one in the UK at all.

Every one of you will need to be proficient and ready to operate (meaning licensed & experienced) well BEFORE the SHTF 

Like N2MG said....if you wait until "it" all "happens",    you won't be able to make it (the comms)  happen!

You'll likely have a better communications "chance"  if you all have SAT phones. Chances are,  they'll work......and you can spend your money and effort on getting your garden, water source and other emergency sources of "stuff" in order.
Cheers,

Rick



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KC0W

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Re: Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2022, 03:21:51 AM »

 One post & never to be heard from again.  :)

                 Tom KH0/KC0W
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KA2DDX

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Re: Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2022, 05:24:35 AM »

technician licenses and a couple of ht's over irlp on 2m or 440.
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WA2EIO

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Re: Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2022, 06:01:20 AM »

Some things to consider:

Ham radio requires taking and passing a technical test for a license, which is for a person, not a family or location; you don't just apply and pay for a license.
   
England has different requirements and license classes than in the U.S., so that family will have to do their own research as to what is required there. 

Do all of you  have the room to put up a (large/long/tall) HF antenna at their locations.

Will you all have the power needed to supply the radio.   The radio will need more than a small hand-held size battery to operate effectively.

You have quite a bit of research to do yet.

Are all your kids on board with the idea?
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WA2EIO

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Re: Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2022, 06:02:44 AM »

technician licenses and a couple of ht's over irlp on 2m or 440.

He did say, "....if our cell phones and Internet went down for any length of time, ...." so that leave traditional radio!
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KA2DDX

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Re: Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2022, 06:35:34 AM »

He did say, "....if our cell phones and Internet went down for any length of time, ...." so that leave traditional radio!

Ok, but he didn't specify where the internet is down.

Is it down at my qth or is it down all over? etc.............

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CTC60025

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Re: Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2022, 06:52:55 AM »

You can start by getting you and your kids appropriate amateur radio licenses.  Then since the sunspot cycle is becoming such that communications is possible between the locations you  mentioned (but probably NEVER all of them at the same time) , you'll have to ensure that each of you have appropriate equipment and multiband directional antennas to make it happen.

Then all of you will need to become proficient in operating that equipment.

It will likely never be "consistent" since HF propagation is not consistent.....I.E> You may be able to communicate with the one in SLC and maybe The one in Vancouver, BC but not be able to even hear the one in the UK at all.

Every one of you will need to be proficient and ready to operate (meaning licensed & experienced)

You'll likely have a better communications "chance"  if you all have SAT phones.

Thank you WA6III.
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CTC60025

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Re: Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2022, 06:54:24 AM »

technician licenses and a couple of ht's over irlp on 2m or 440.

Thank you KA2DDX.
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CTC60025

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Re: Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2022, 06:55:38 AM »

Ham radio requires taking and passing a technical test for a license, which is for a person, not a family or location; you don't just apply and pay for a license.
   
England has different requirements and license classes than in the U.S., so that family will have to do their own research as to what is required there. 

Do all of you  have the room to put up a (large/long/tall) HF antenna at their locations.

Will you all have the power needed to supply the radio.   The radio will need more than a small hand-held size battery to operate effectively.

Thank you WA2EIO.
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WB6BYU

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Re: Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2022, 08:22:15 AM »

There isn’t a simple solution.  If there were, it would
get so crowded in that circumstance that any simple
solution probably won’t work as desired.

It is possible to have some sort of communications
with those locations, but not to the level of ease,
regularity, or reliability of cell phone connections in
normal times.  Let me suggest some examples.

Standard short-wave voice contacts are possible when
the ionosphere is being cooperative, which may be at
different times of day and on different frequencies for
each target location.  And that changes in various ways
with time, not all of which will be predictable.  So it
isn’t as easy as just picking a convenient time and
frequency for everyone to meet, but, with high power
and a good antenna system on multiple frequencies,
You may be able to contact each station individually
on some sort of periodic basis.  It will, however, take
some experience to learn what equipment is needed
and how to adapt to changing conditions.

The chance of making a contact (or the ability to do
so with lower power and/or smaller antennas) is
higher using Morse code, or some of the digital
(computer-to-computer) modes on short wave.
Morse code is slower, and for highest reliability with
weak signals and simple equipment you would need
to learn to decode it by ear to pick weak signals
out of the noise:  another skill that requires training
and practice.  Some digital modes can handle even
weaker signals, but aren’t all set up for passing
much more than an acknowledgement that you
heard the other station.  Extended messages will
take longer to transmit.

There are automated systems (known as “ALE”) that
continuously check different frequencies to see if
contact is possible, that improve the chance of finding
an opportunity to get a message through.  That adds
more complexity for improved reliability, but still won’t
guarantee that you can get through, or when.  This
probably is most suitable for posting text messages
that get sent whenever conditions are suitable, so
not necessarily an immediate, interactive conversation.

There are other possible modes, including bouncing
signals off meteors, or even off the moon.  The former
passes small bits of data at random times, the latter
provides a more predictable path (at the right time
of day), but requires more sophisticated equipment.


All of these, however, require experience to set up and
use to provide the desired communications
.  That
probably means a few years of practice and familiarization
to determine the required equipment and learn how to
adapt to changing conditions.  To give a sense of
perspective, the ionosphere (responsible for shortwave
radio propagation) varies with the sunspot cycle (roughly
11 years or so), and ideally you’d want at least one
cycle minimum and maximum to see the expected
variation (although each cycle is different).


Based on observations in many circumstances over the
years, my philosophy is:

If you don’t use it regularly, don’t count on it in an emergency.

So using ham radio for your desired communications
isn’t something where you can just buy the radios and
store them in the closet until you need them.  It would
be a long-term commitment to acquire the skills,
knowledge, and experience to make it work, along with
the required equipment and antennas.

G4AON

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Re: Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?
« Reply #12 on: June 21, 2022, 08:27:28 AM »

As other replies mentioned, you need a fairly significant amount of hardware to communicate over several thousand miles on a daily basis, even then propagation isn’t guaranteed. If you check the predictions, you will see that you have a percentage probability of being able to communicate on a particular band at a particular time.

Retired hams with a 3 element yagi antenna on a tower at perhaps 60 feet, maybe able to communicate across the Atlantic most days for an hour at a time. However, it’s not necessarily at a time to suit you, nor that everyone can install a tower.

If the “plan” is to provide family communication in times of conflict, then you may find amateur radio is shut down.

In terms of basic email exchanges, the worldwide Winlink network operates independently of the national internet, for example if the UK internet was down, I can send email via Winlink access in European countries via HF radio using an SCS Pactor modem and Winlink Express software.

A satellite phone is a lot cheaper…

73 Dave
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W6MK

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Re: Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?
« Reply #13 on: June 21, 2022, 11:44:51 AM »

A satellite phone is a lot cheaper.

Not to mention far less complex to operate. And much more reliable.

When my local cell tower is out, I can still use my landline phone, which comes to the house via a wire. Some areas of the country will deliver internet and phone to your house via optical fiber cable and the usual coax cable. Along with hundreds of TV stations.

I would also keep in mind that cellphones have become so universal in much of the world that keeping them going is a fundamental priority for government and the corporate world in emergency conditions.

Amateur radio is not properly referred to as "ham." "Ham" is what one makes a sandwich out of. A little actual research, not necessarily on a ham forum, will make all your options much more comprehensible.
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WA3SKN

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Re: Communicate consistently over 1000's of miles?
« Reply #14 on: June 21, 2022, 02:42:25 PM »

Its not practical.
Everyone needs to licensed and everyone needs to understand propagation.etc.
However, you said possible.
yes, it is possible.

-Mike.
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