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Author Topic: Planning for Mutual Aid  (Read 763 times)

W9FIB

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2022, 06:52:01 AM »

The comment of fire departments needing to know each other to work together is also incorrect. As a 25-year volunteer fireman, when you have a big fire beyond what your department can handle, you call in departments from surrounding communities. Do you know them? Not really, just as they don't know you. Yet we have a mutual respect for each other's capabilities. And quickly form a bond to fight the fire and not worry if I know the person's name or not.
In such responses are the firefighters deployed as teams or broken up and distributed as needed? Do they arrive as teams?

They deploy men and equipment requested by incident command. Once on scene, the incident command assigns them as needed. In a rural setting like I am in, most department volunteers are cross trained to do any task required. There are few actual teams in a rural department. And the major reason for that is when the alarm sounds, you don't know who is going to show up. So, you respond with who is there. This emphasizes the need for cross training and able to be deployed in any position. A 2.5" hose with a straight nozzle and charged to 50 PSI takes about 3 good men to control. And at a big fire you many have many lines run all needing manning. So, you will probably never have the same group of 3 at any given fire.

Daytime fires are usually the worst as so many are at work during the day. And being rural, the commutes are generally a lot longer than in a city. I myself travel 27 miles one way to get to my office. Plus, with the lack of volunteerism sweeping America, the ranks keep getting thinner. And that is the reason I say if you volunteer in a disaster, be prepared to do anything. Cause that will maximize your worth. Just playing radio minimizes your worth.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

KB8VUL

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2022, 06:25:22 PM »

I think that the statements about ham volunteers and volunteers is totally missing the point, OR is based in the same level of nonsense as to WHY served agencies don't want the assistance of ham's.  They have a self importance mind set and can't see past it.

If a bunch of volunteer firefighters show up in a fire truck when you have a fire, you are going to let them put the fire out.  WHY? Because volunteer or paid employee, they are trained firefighters.  And that's what they do.

If you have a radio antenna on a commercial tower that's 300 feet high and you are talking about it on the local repeater while you are at the site to change it out and some ham operator shows up with his expired pole climbing belt and some wrenches, are you gonna let him climb the tower, mind you you have never met him before and have no idea if he's a professional tower climber or not, he's just there and going to VOLUNTEER his services.  And remember, YOU are responsible for his actions at the site, and if he falls or knocks something off the air you will no doubt get tossed off the site almost as fast as he fell to the ground.

If you have one iota of sense, then of course your answer is NO.
So a bunch of guys show up to volunteer because they took a test that requires 3 hours of study to pass and they have radios.  Lets put them in charge of ALL communications, because they have call sign badges.  NO.
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AC7CW

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2022, 06:44:15 PM »

Obama spent billions so that hams would not be necessary in emergencies afaik. I'm thinking that hams should specialize in health and welfare messaging... can't we send emails via radio? We could then fill in otherwise as needed.
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Novice 1958, 20WPM Extra now... (and get off my lawn)

KB8VUL

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2022, 04:52:00 AM »

Obama spent billions so that hams would not be necessary in emergencies afaik. I'm thinking that hams should specialize in health and welfare messaging... can't we send emails via radio? We could then fill in otherwise as needed.

Exactly, we need to reinvent what we are doing to support communications during a disaster.  MESH networking, providing the displaced a way to communicate to family they are safe and where they are.  But we need to get away from the idea that we somehow are going to be handling public safety communications.  I still hear guys that are 100% convinced that they are gonna be riding shotgun in firetrucks and police cars when their radio systems fail.  And that's just NOT gonna happen.  I actually defy ANYONE to come forward and say they did that in the last 20 years anywhere in the USA where it was actually requested and they were out passing actual public safety dispatch traffic while riding around in a cop car or fire truck.  And yes, links to news stories about it are required as proof.  The reason I know it never happened is people would STILL be talking about how they did that and 'saved the day'.  Even twenty years later. 

The statements of needing to be willing to do whatever at a shelter, like pour coffee is true. If that's what they need it's gonna be ask of you.  Because they have their comm's covered.  Either provide something they don't have covered or leave your radios at home and go pour coffee and setup cots.
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K6CPO

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2022, 10:08:12 AM »

In San Diego County, CA, the assigned mission of ARES is to support the county hospital system with back-up communications, including WinLink. ARES has been doing these drills for a number of years, to the point where the hospitals actually request our participation.  Just this past Thursday, there was a county-wide hospital drill, with the scenario being a major earthquake in the region. This is the first we have participated in since the beginning of the pandemic. San Diego ARES placed operators in 14 hospitals, the County medical Operations Center and had three home-based net control operators. This included the Naval Medical Center San Diego (Balboa) and in the past the Navy Hospital Ship USNS Mercy has participated when she's in port.

All of our operators have ICS/NIMS training and have Task Book sign-off requirements. No operator is randomly assigned to a location and inexperienced operators are always placed with an experienced individual. All operators are required to undergo a background investigation by the county and are issued Disaster Service Worker ID cards upon completion of the investigation.

In addition to the above, ARES puts "boots on the ground" at the annual Marine Corps Air Station Miramar air show. Our assignment is to be additional eyes and ears in the massive crowds that attend the three days of the air show and to look for lost children or adults. In this capacity, we work closely with the air station Provost Marshal's Office and the Military Police.

What all this points out is that with good leadership, dedicated volunteers and training, an organization can be fully accepted by served agencies without issue. The days of "I have my license and a yellow vest. I'm here to help." are over.
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KG7LEA

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2022, 11:54:19 AM »

To restate the question, how do you handle 1) coming up short and needing help from out of town? and 2) a request from another jurisdiction—amateur radio or emergency manager—for assistance?
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W9IQ

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2022, 02:44:08 PM »

If you are operating in the context of ARES, you would contact your section or district EC. We have such a contact tree incorporated in our ARES playbook.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KB8VUL

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2022, 04:00:20 AM »

To restate the question, how do you handle 1) coming up short and needing help from out of town? and 2) a request from another jurisdiction—amateur radio or emergency manager—for assistance?

You define requirements for training ahead of time for ALL individuals and adhere to those requirements in all cases.  If / when you make the request for additional assistance from outside your group you remind the folks you are making the request to about those requirements and require they show proof of those requirements. 

But be warned, doing this can make it difficult for you to obtain help outside your group.  Requiring these things to be a member of the group is a simple thing.  You do it or you leave.  But finding other groups with the same requirements is not going to be as easy.  I was a VERT member for a few years.  We had required training to be a member and had to redo that training at a certain interval.  But we were ALL trained the same way with the same information.  So what they knew was established.  With ARES, no such training exists. 

So the statement of "I have a radio and a yellow vest" truly doesn't cut it any more. 

Personally, I think that ARES members should ALL have CERT training.  Basic firefighting, first-aid, Triage, SAR, cribbing and jacking, and personal safety / hazard mitigation.  The ability to operate a radio is sort of established when you get a ham license.  And lets be honest, anyone can operate a radio.  It ain't hard.  But if there was a requirement for CERT training, then the served agency can see two things.  First is a commitment to being of service beyond just operating a radio,  second is a set of skills that can be utilized.  And there is a third thing here too.  Once you are a CERT member, when you are activated, you are a first responder and are covered under the insurance all first responders are covered by and are legally held harmless for your actions.  You can't sue an EMT for saving your life, or NOT saving the life of another while he's doing his duty as an EMT.  That's a nation wide thing in all states.  Hams' don't have that.  And therefore CAN'T be put in harms way at all.
 
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W1MOW

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2022, 12:14:03 PM »




[/quote|
Personally, I think that ARES members should ALL have CERT training.  Basic firefighting, first-aid, Triage, SAR, cribbing and jacking, and personal safety / hazard mitigation. You can't sue an EMT for saving your life, or NOT saving the life of another while he's doing his duty as an EMT.  That's a nation wide thing in all states.
[/quote]

A couple of points about this statement...Having ridden an ambulance before EMT's, then becoming an EMT, then a Nationally Regisitered EMT-Paramedic. All this training was well over 3000 hours, plus thousands of dollars. At one time were required to complete a Firefighter 1 class, another 300 hours.

Not sure where you got the idea that an EMT could not get sued, boy are you wrong! EMT's are sued daily. Ever watch TV and all the ads for lawyers. I have been called as an expert witness 3 times.

Every state has different laws/regs. For example, if you as a private citizen drive by an accident in Vermont or New Hampshire where 1st Responders have yet to arrive, you are required to stop and render aid, even if you have no training. According to the NIH (Where I have my Medical Control.) in 31 of the 50 states you have no duty to act unless you are on duty. The other 19 states you have a requirement to act, even if you are visiting from another state and it is up to you to know that.

By the way I also have 30 years in Law Enforcement. All my EMS was as a volunteer starting at age 16.

While your statement is a good idea, it is unreasable.

Gary W1MOW
« Last Edit: July 28, 2022, 12:16:54 PM by W1MOW »
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The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt - Bertram Russell (1935)

So not much has changed in almost 90 years!

W9IQ

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2022, 12:24:44 PM »

Thanks for your service, Gary.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KB8VUL

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2022, 07:32:10 PM »




[/quote|
Personally, I think that ARES members should ALL have CERT training.  Basic firefighting, first-aid, Triage, SAR, cribbing and jacking, and personal safety / hazard mitigation. You can't sue an EMT for saving your life, or NOT saving the life of another while he's doing his duty as an EMT.  That's a nation wide thing in all states.

A couple of points about this statement...Having ridden an ambulance before EMT's, then becoming an EMT, then a Nationally Regisitered EMT-Paramedic. All this training was well over 3000 hours, plus thousands of dollars. At one time were required to complete a Firefighter 1 class, another 300 hours.

Not sure where you got the idea that an EMT could not get sued, boy are you wrong! EMT's are sued daily. Ever watch TV and all the ads for lawyers. I have been called as an expert witness 3 times.

Every state has different laws/regs. For example, if you as a private citizen drive by an accident in Vermont or New Hampshire where 1st Responders have yet to arrive, you are required to stop and render aid, even if you have no training. According to the NIH (Where I have my Medical Control.) in 31 of the 50 states you have no duty to act unless you are on duty. The other 19 states you have a requirement to act, even if you are visiting from another state and it is up to you to know that.

By the way I also have 30 years in Law Enforcement. All my EMS was as a volunteer starting at age 16.

While your statement is a good idea, it is unreasable.

Gary W1MOW
[/quote]


Fair enough.  Ohio for sure, can't sue EMT's for attempting to render aid.
As far as the CERT training.  CERT is not gonna make you a fireman or and EMT.  The first aid is basic. It's honestly only a bit more than a Boy Scout Merit badge requirement for first aid. Been through both, taught both.  Firefighting is how to operate a fire extinguisher and which one to use, or more importantly which one to NOT use on a small fire.  Think trash can fire NOT dumpster fire size.  The jacking cribbing and shoring is a bit of a here's how this works,,,, NEVER DO THIS as a CERT member.  Meaning, one of the big things that's pushed is hazard recognition and avoidance.  Then hazard mitigation, loosely defined as if it looks dangerous, put CAUTION tape around it and move on. The cribbing and shoring we learned was specific to structures that had clasped.  Of course, you never enter a structurally unsound building.  That was in hazard mitigation training.  So you should never actually USE that part of the training.  And the hazard avoidance stuff cut any possibility of law enforcement out as well.  We were specifically told, and with good reason, if there is a problem like a riot, leave the area.  Avoid that sort of thing. 

Yes, EMT / firefighter cards require a TON of training. What a fire extinguisher is and which one to use is an evening class.  Basic first aid is a couple nights.  CRP is also a one night thing.  I believe we were in class for 2 weeks for 3 or 4 hours a night. 
Point I am making is the CERT training is consistent across all area's.  So served agencies will know what you have been trained on and how much training you have had.  The biggest thing being hazard avoidance and mitigation.  There was also some situational awareness stuff for surveying a disaster scene and WHAT you should and should  NOT report back to the incident command.  And THAT is something that hams could be doing to assist with as there are gonna be a lot of operators that are gonna jump on the air before, during and after a situation occurs that MAY have useful information that a control operator with proper training could be reporting back to IC.  But THEY need to be able to trust the information they are getting.
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KD3Y

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #26 on: August 02, 2022, 04:13:18 PM »

Having some experience professionally in emergency response, no one trusts volunteers and less so for unknown volunteers. Ham radio is essentially a hobby and can often hinder rather than help, require more oversight and supervision than it’s worth and isn’t dependable when and if actually needed.

I understand new hams enter the hobby with a sense that EMCON is real. The marketing is effective albeit misleading.

Maybe in some places.  Here in Coastal NC the EOC relies on Hams heavily when the grid goes down.  Our club has an HF "Tarheel" antenna, a 80 meter Dipole, and a 2-meter vertical on the city's tower at the police department.  In fact, at the hurricane drill earlier this year, the County EOC Manager introduced us as "My radio support, The people I turn to when county coms go down and we can't talk to our police departments, Fire Departments, and hurricane shelters".

Our last hurricane, which was a Cat 4, landed 10 miles from my house.  We had Hams at every city hall, at every fire department, at the EOC, and at all the designated shelters.  The Neuse river flooded to our west, the Newport river flooded to our east, blocking 70 Hwy so we were literally cut off fromt he world.   The ambulances couldn't get to either hospital, the water was too high for the NG deep-water vehicles until three days after the storm surge subsided, and the USCG helicopters were flying people to hospitals until they were grounded due to bad weather.  Newport set up a temporary medical facility in the fire department manned by....<drum roll> Ham operators, who were constantly relaying info to the ECO County Emergency Planners.   So maybe in Arizonna or South Dakota no one trusts "unprofessional volunteers".  Of course, there's "wackos" but they get weeded out and "uninvited" fairly quickly.

In Pitt County, the entire city was flooded.   There was ONE HAM standing in the rain at the school football field with a handheld directing USCG and NG helicopters where to land and drop off people who were rescued off their rooftops.

In my particular case, I had an elderly resident here a few blocks from me who ran out of medical oxygen.  No place was filling medical O2 cylinders for weeks, and even if they were, 70 Hwy was blocked in both directions.  This lady ran out of O2.  I had four scuba cylinders full of 40% O2 in my garage and was able to bring them to her.  I called my EMT friend and he told her to use them and if her O2 monitor sounded the "O2 drop" alarm, there was nothing anyone could do for her.   Life flight was grounded and 70 hwy was blocked in both directions.   So go ask that lady what her opinion is on "unprofessional Ham volunteers".

And I might remind you, there's tens of thousands of "volunteers" serving in Afghanistan, Iraq, and South Korea right now doing the best job our F'd up goverment will allow them to do.

There's bad cops, bad doctors, bad lawyers, bad soldiers, bad politicians, etc.  but we don't label them all bad because of the Derrick Chauvins and McMichaels in the group.

Our 9-1-1 center at the EOC has a dedicated cubicle complete with about six different radios, and they call US when the hurricane takes out the County coms, and the cell companies can't get the portable towers on site for a week.

Your comment is about as ridiculous as the "All black people are criminals" and "All mexicans are illegal" comments that appear every so often. Volunteers have their bad apples just like every other public service, and that's normal for any group.  I never see "all nurses are bad and no one trusts them" comments when you see a nurse charged and convicted with abusing a rest home patient.

My transcript with NC EOM and CERT is two pages long, so volunteers CAN get the training to be para-volunteers if they put forth the effort and take their responsibility seriously. The whackos are weeded out before they ever get to the point that County EOC will issue them an access badge to get in the back door of the EOC (and lets them get into the donuts box).

Every Police Chief in the county, The Sheriff, the Fire Marshal, the VFD representatives, the State EOC officials, the Red Cross, the County managers, the State Police representatives, the DOT representative, the Salvation Army volunteers,  the NC Dept of Ag representative, and the Baptist men were all at the drill.  During Florence, fuelers couldn't get from Selma to deliver fuel, Duke Power couldn't deploy to get the grid back up, Local PD's didn't have the fuel to respond to any calls that weren't life endanger calls, but the Hams were at all the town halls in the County and the hurricane shelters relaying information to the EOC regarding what they needed and at the VFD's directing the USCG fast boat teams on what residents were in danger and needed rescuing.

Unless you've had to spend a week eating MRE's and sleeping on the dirty floor of the EOC unable to leave until the County coms are back up (while wondering how YOUR family was doing, and if YOUR house was still standing), with one female shower and one male shower to share with 100 other "unprofessional volunteers", maybe you don't understand the big picture.  The last thing the mayor said to me at the last town hall meeting after he saw my "unprofessional" cap with my call sign on it was, "Is that your call sign?"..."Yessir.  I live two blocks away on Lakeview Street.  I have HF, 10 meter, 2-meter, 70 cm, a generator, and WinLink capabilities"..."Alright.  I'm calling you next time I can't talk to my police officers or Fire Department."  Our County coms are on a tower powered by a generator that has 1,000 gallons of "emergency" diesel to run it when the grid goes down.  It doesn't take very long to go thru 1,000 gallons of diesel when the grid goes down, you have to share that with other emergency services, and you won't get more for a two weeks until the DOT gets the roads clear and the terminal starts operations again.

Furthermore, we don't show up until the County Emergency Operations planner ASKS us to.  So obviously she has at least some measure of confidence in, trust in, and and need for our "services".  I might not know the other volunteers personally, but since the NC governor requires all EOC "unprofessional volunteers" to have State mandated NIMS/FEMA/NCOEM basic training, I know they have training and I can be confident thay take their job seriously.  I have to pay out of my pocket to attend the Emergency Management classes, pay put of my pocket for my First reponder classes (NC doesn't pay for the classes for "volunteers") , and have to invest my time at the training events that I otherwise could spend out laying on the beach watching bikinis walk by, so no normal person invests all that time and money just to be a whacko and get told to hit the road.

Yeah I know there's no shortage of whackos with a "Ham operator" badge to flash, a Boofang, and the obligatory orange vest and gung-ho pretend authority with no training other than YouTube who decide to show up and get in the way.  But I respectfully ask you please don't put all volunteers in the same category with the whackos.
















« Last Edit: August 02, 2022, 04:32:34 PM by KD3Y »
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KD3Y

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #27 on: August 02, 2022, 04:47:19 PM »

I think that the statements about ham volunteers and volunteers is totally missing the point, OR is based in the same level of nonsense as to WHY served agencies don't want the assistance of ham's.  They have a self importance mind set and can't see past it.

If a bunch of volunteer firefighters show up in a fire truck when you have a fire, you are going to let them put the fire out.  WHY? Because volunteer or paid employee, they are trained firefighters.  And that's what they do.

If you have a radio antenna on a commercial tower that's 300 feet high and you are talking about it on the local repeater while you are at the site to change it out and some ham operator shows up with his expired pole climbing belt and some wrenches, are you gonna let him climb the tower, mind you you have never met him before and have no idea if he's a professional tower climber or not, he's just there and going to VOLUNTEER his services.  And remember, YOU are responsible for his actions at the site, and if he falls or knocks something off the air you will no doubt get tossed off the site almost as fast as he fell to the ground.

If you have one iota of sense, then of course your answer is NO.
So a bunch of guys show up to volunteer because they took a test that requires 3 hours of study to pass and they have radios.  Lets put them in charge of ALL communications, because they have call sign badges.  NO.

I don't know about other places, but around here you can't even get NEAR a tower unless you're a licensed and bonded climber.  A worn-out climbers harness off eBay and a hard hat from WalMart just won't get it.  The last time we needed an antenna replaced on our tower, we had to pay a guy $1,500 to climb 300 feet and replace the antenna and some damaged coax.  I suspect the idea that any-old-body can show up with a Boofang and orange vest and be assigned to anything other than mopping the EOC restroom floors is pure ham-hater folklore.  Hell, we had to sign a release, provide proof of liability insurance, and jump thru hoops with three different town departments just to get the County Water Dept. manager to allow us to put an antenna on the towns water tower for the town to use during an emergency in case the county coms failed, and the Ham doing the begging to get it to happen was the Towns own Planning and Building Inspector.
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KD3Y

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #28 on: August 02, 2022, 05:08:19 PM »

Quote
And the major reason for that is when the alarm sounds, you don't know who is going to show up. So, you respond with who is there.

LOL.  Yessir.  I remember a young green Infantry squad leader in Iraq 30 years ago who bitched to his CO because he didn't think he had the resources to do the assigned mission.  CPT George, Army Airborne Ranger, commanding, responded with, "Anthony, you go to war with the team you have, not the team you'd like to have."  That young green team leader was me.

When the "professionals" are beat down and worn-out, everything seems to be going to hell, the coms are down, the roads are flooded or blocked by down trees, and the power grid is a tangled mess, you use whatever volunteer assets you have at hand.
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K6CPO

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #29 on: August 03, 2022, 11:38:14 AM »

I don't know about other places, but around here you can't even get NEAR a tower unless you're a licensed and bonded climber.  A worn-out climbers harness off eBay and a hard hat from WalMart just won't get it.  The last time we needed an antenna replaced on our tower, we had to pay a guy $1,500 to climb 300 feet and replace the antenna and some damaged coax.  I suspect the idea that any-old-body can show up with a Boofang and orange vest and be assigned to anything other than mopping the EOC restroom floors is pure ham-hater folklore.  Hell, we had to sign a release, provide proof of liability insurance, and jump thru hoops with three different town departments just to get the County Water Dept. manager to allow us to put an antenna on the towns water tower for the town to use during an emergency in case the county coms failed, and the Ham doing the begging to get it to happen was the Towns own Planning and Building Inspector.

This sounds very familiar. 

My club has two repeaters utilizing a city-owner tower and building (shack) that's located on property owned by the local water district. When we decided to go full solar power on the repeaters, as the club President, I had to sign a bunch a paperwork with both the city  and the water district to be able to install a pair of 100W panels on the tower.  We now have totally grid independent repeaters with battery backup for night time operation.
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