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Author Topic: Planning for Mutual Aid  (Read 764 times)

WB6BYU

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2022, 06:14:33 PM »

The State of Oregon provides ham equipment for every county EOC,
as long as the local ARES group is organized to support it.  That
includes requirements for regular exercises.  The State level ARES/RACES
organization has standards for certification at different levels, so
we have some idea of the capabilities of someone helping
out from another county.

Why are they willing to spend the money??   Because some years
ago, the volunteer operators provided the only contact between the
state OEM and several counties that got badly flooded.  Yes, they've
also implemented improvements in their own comm systems, but the
failure of all the state systems for the various agencies was so
thorough, that it made sense.

The local groups all work with the county emergency managers to
identify local needs and install and exercise equipment.  Yes, there
have been some Yahoos who didn't want to take the training,
participate in exercises, or were generally incompetent or otherwise
ineffective, including some in leadership positions.  That's always
a problem with volunteer organizations, and ham radio is no
different from many others.

At the moment we have more requests for support from agencies
than we can reasonably provide in an emergency.  That requires
recruitment and training, as well as advance planning and
a flexible organizational structure focused on meeting local
needs.  And its a lot of work.


It's a far cry from someone showing up in a yellow vest and
an HT, thinking they will save the day.  But if your local organization
hasn't already developed a good working relationship with
your served agencies, standards for certification, and
a commitment to preparation and training, then that's
what you're going to get.  And it probably won't end well...

KC3TEC

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #31 on: November 06, 2022, 01:37:03 PM »

Much of the time in many instances communications assistance is declined for spurious reasons.
Any volunteer firefighter and or fire police requires nims in order to be in the department as an active member.
I have seen ares coordinators tell some volunteers to go home and stay out of the way. ( in those exact words )

How is this promoting the service?

If you make it difficult for anyone to contribute to the service, then its no wonder when new applications seriously wane!

Quite simply put if you can afford a high priced radio to set up an ares station, what gives you the right to dissuade the cheap handheld and the cell phone?
If someone is volunteering their time and effort, dont you think it would be better to use them in some function or another?
Writing down messages they hear for example.
Quite often they may catch something the operator misses and having duplicate recording only helps clear a scenario.

Yes you will get a few yahoos, thats normal!
We have to deal with self styled" reporters" who will live record a fatal crash and post it on you tube. And rely on the first ammendment as their Right to do so.

Offer the training if they refuse it they have no business being there and let the police handle it.
But you should know many of us volunteers who are also amateures do take training in ares and disaster control.
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KT4WO

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #32 on: November 06, 2022, 02:46:39 PM »

Whackers never want to hear they ARE whackers.

I spent 25 years in "real" emergency service like others here
and we would know.

Don't buy into the ARRL ARES crap, you will never do
anything in a emergency except maybe clean the Port-A-Jon.
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AI5BC

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #33 on: November 06, 2022, 05:29:29 PM »

Whackers never want to hear they ARE whackers.

I spent 25 years in "real" emergency service like others here
and we would know.
Ditto. I do contract work for a large city PSAP Dispatch Center. They have a conference room set up for ham volunteers to play radio. They have strict instructions not to interfere. The unofficial name of the conference room is the Pretenders Lounge. Just a bunch of old Baby Boomers playing cards. None of the radios will work underground. 
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KC3TEC

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2022, 06:08:18 AM »

I think that the statements about ham volunteers and volunteers is totally missing the point, OR is based in the same level of nonsense as to WHY served agencies don't want the assistance of ham's.  They have a self importance mind set and can't see past it.

If a bunch of volunteer firefighters show up in a fire truck when you have a fire, you are going to let them put the fire out.  WHY? Because volunteer or paid employee, they are trained firefighters.  And that's what they do.

If you have a radio antenna on a commercial tower that's 300 feet high and you are talking about it on the local repeater while you are at the site to change it out and some ham operator shows up with his expired pole climbing belt and some wrenches, are you gonna let him climb the tower, mind you you have never met him before and have no idea if he's a professional tower climber or not, he's just there and going to VOLUNTEER his services.  And remember, YOU are responsible for his actions at the site, and if he falls or knocks something off the air you will no doubt get tossed off the site almost as fast as he fell to the ground.

If you have one iota of sense, then of course your answer is NO.
So a bunch of guys show up to volunteer because they took a test that requires 3 hours of study to pass and they have radios.  Lets put them in charge of ALL communications, because they have call sign badges.  NO.
And this is the elitism that puts people off off volunteering.

Grouping every ham in the same category as the one hit wonders who pass a test after three hours of studying practice test answers is a gross injustice to those who have taken the time to learn properly by building their own gear from scratch.
Passing a test after you've studied fcc's regs mauals and the arrls antenna guides.
Setting up multiple stations!
No single antenna system is perfect, and no radio can transmit on more than one frequency at a time and still be legal.
You set up a powerful 2 meter but is a 10 meter going to interfere with it?
Its just a resource just as people are.

And any leader who cannot properly utilize a resource is not qualified to do so

And refering to a volunteer organization as not a " REAL SERVICE" smacks of elitism in the worst form.
We have to take the same training as the paid departments, we have to compete for the same grants that paid departments do.

Unlike a paid department we dont have shifts, we have our own jobs, but our free time is always all on call.
No matter what time of day or night, No matter if its 102 degrees or -40 I am out there ( and by the way In 62 years old)
And a military vet as well.
This whole discussion sounds suspiciously like insurance shills that keeps popping up on the firehouse forums trying to influence communities to do away with volunteer departments

We also face the same crap from other agencies over fire police( assigned traffic control)
Some of us for medical conditions cannot participate in interior so for our own safety we are external crew or fire police.
If not for us being there full active firefighters would be pulled from the teams to control traffic and that puts the rest of the crew and any investigator in danger.

Do you think its pleasant to have people dumping $#!t on you just because your a volunteer?

To the point we save lives and properties a lot more than we lose them, we do it with no pay, and no time limits.
We often have to make do with used equipment donated by other departments.
And have a hell of a lot harder time getting equipment than paid departments.
Our surrounding communities and departments rely on each other extensively because we are spread thin over a very large area and we face a lot more stress as well.

So whos a " real " firefighter?
Answer
ALL OF US ARE!  paid or volunteer alike.

So dont crap on hams utilize them correctly,
Recording messages, or foot messanger between on scene commander and communications( providing they do not get in the way of the crews) or utilize them as observers.( the more eyes on a subject gains more information and paints a highly detailed picture)
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KC3TEC

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2022, 11:04:25 AM »

Sorry for ranting like that!
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions but when its detrimental to others, it serves no good purpose.
So rather than argue semantics, how about we use the information to make improvements rather than throw stones!
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AI5BC

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2022, 02:44:04 PM »


And this is the elitism that puts people off off volunteering.

Grouping every ham in the same category as the one hit wonders who pass a test after three hours of studying practice test answers
That is all it takes to be a ham. Comparing volunteer firefighter to hams is ignorance. Who do you want to show up at your home on fire. A volunteer firefighter or some old Boomer in a wheelchair with a radio?
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W9IQ

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2022, 03:33:23 PM »

The common requirement these days are an MOU, multiple levels of NIMS certification and regular drills with the served agencies. In my experience, the served agencies are grateful for the voluntary assistance and expertise that the hams bring.

I also don't want a fireman showing up at my shack to install and tune my tribander. Well, OK, maybe install the antenna with their ladder truck....

- Glenn W9IQ
« Last Edit: November 07, 2022, 03:47:20 PM by W9IQ »
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

W9FIB

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #38 on: November 08, 2022, 05:02:47 AM »

Well, OK, maybe install the antenna with their ladder truck....
- Glenn W9IQ

Seen that done. Way cheaper than a crane if you have the right connections.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

W9FIB

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2022, 05:48:51 AM »


And this is the elitism that puts people off off volunteering.

Grouping every ham in the same category as the one hit wonders who pass a test after three hours of studying practice test answers
That is all it takes to be a ham. Comparing volunteer firefighter to hams is ignorance. Who do you want to show up at your home on fire. A volunteer firefighter or some old Boomer in a wheelchair with a radio?

Which would you rather have...a volunteer helping provide back up to the firefighters, or taking trained firefighters off the front line to do the things needed that a volunteer can do?

And this is even more true in rural areas like I am in where Fire and EMS are also volunteers. We have no one sitting around waiting for the next call. We are at work or home with our families and rush away when the pager goes off.

Maybe we should just not help and watch from a distance while your house burns down, or your stuck in a car wrapped around a tree, or you're lying on the floor with a heart attack and no one shows up to help, or many of the countless other things we are asked to do. And remember that in order for us to help you, the amount of training we go through on OUR time.

Is it so much to ask for just a tiny amount of appreciation for those willing to show up and help in ANY way they can? Well?

Did you stop and think that those Boomers in wheelchairs are the ones willing to show up to help? WHERE ARE THE REST OF YOU???????? It is easy to pin a name on a group and make fun of them, isn't it? Just wait a few years and we will all be gone. Then what? Are you then going to step up to the plate?

Sometimes it makes me want to take my 25-year fire service certificate and burn it under the a$$&$ of those who thumb their noses at the work we do for YOU.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

W9IQ

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2022, 06:51:35 AM »

When a ham says that all hams are ignorant, lazy, unskilled and unwanted, one must conclude that the ham making the statement falls into the same category.

In this case, however, I reject the premise but accept the conclusion.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

KC3TEC

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2022, 07:26:28 AM »


And this is the elitism that puts people off off volunteering.

Grouping every ham in the same category as the one hit wonders who pass a test after three hours of studying practice test answers
That is all it takes to be a ham. Comparing volunteer firefighter to hams is ignorance. Who do you want to show up at your home on fire. A volunteer firefighter or some old Boomer in a wheelchair with a radio?

Which would you rather have...a volunteer helping provide back up to the firefighters, or taking trained firefighters off the front line to do the things needed that a volunteer can do?

And this is even more true in rural areas like I am in where Fire and EMS are also volunteers. We have no one sitting around waiting for the next call. We are at work or home with our families and rush away when the pager goes off.

Maybe we should just not help and watch from a distance while your house burns down, or your stuck in a car wrapped around a tree, or you're lying on the floor with a heart attack and no one shows up to help, or many of the countless other things we are asked to do. And remember that in order for us to help you, the amount of training we go through on OUR time.

Is it so much to ask for just a tiny amount of appreciation for those willing to show up and help in ANY way they can? Well?

Did you stop and think that those Boomers in wheelchairs are the ones willing to show up to help? WHERE ARE THE REST OF YOU???????? It is easy to pin a name on a group and make fun of them, isn't it? Just wait a few years and we will all be gone. Then what? Are you then going to step up to the plate?

Sometimes it makes me want to take my 25-year fire service certificate and burn it under the a$$&$ of those who thumb their noses at the work we do for YOU.

Nail on the head there (thumbs up)
There are far too many out there who will gain that elitist attitude because of 2 things
They have had poor relation or experience with other hams or organizations.
Or their ego has swelled their head so much  that any real intelligence and common sence got squeezed out.

No in our hobby amateur radio is rife with elitists as well.
Many of us like the qrp because its a true abd satisfying challenge,
Some use the cheap chinese junk AND modify them for better performance and cleaner transmitting.
But we also get dumped on if we dont have a $4000 radio and a bird roaster amp cranking out the legal limit of power.

Ive read the comment on another forum
" if you cant afford the big gear, stay the f#(k off the air"

Or reading the comments " throw it away" , " use it for target practice"
Yeah theres a lot of angry old ops out there who were very upset that the fcc dropped the requirement for cw in the test.
Are the taking the time to teach someone or are they just sitting back and bit(#ing?

I for one am re learning morse to be able to participate. ( not using digital or software to send the code and decode but building and using straight keys, sideswipers, and iambic)

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K6CPO

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Re: Planning for Mutual Aid
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2022, 11:30:39 AM »

Whackers never want to hear they ARE whackers.

I spent 25 years in "real" emergency service like others here
and we would know.

Don't buy into the ARRL ARES crap, you will never do
anything in a emergency except maybe clean the Port-A-Jon.

I fail to understand why this topic always seems to generate comments like this one. There are enough different activities available in amateur radio to satisfy just about anyone. If you got into ham radio to help your community during an emergency, good for you. If you got into ham radio to talk to people on the other side of the world, or communicate with someone via a satellite, good for you too.

If you're not interested in emergency communications, then fine. Go back to your FT8 and don't make derisive comments about those of us that are involved in emergency or community service communications.
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