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Author Topic: Beware of NN3V  (Read 1491 times)

VK6HP

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Re: Beware of NN3V
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2022, 04:02:21 AM »

There is no suggestion that the OP's purchase was contingent on shipping cost - quite the contrary in his statement. But he obviously did need the shipping cost to finalise payment etc.

Gazumping is a commercially and ethically corrosive practice on any scale but there's no shortage of people willing to defend the indefensible. So yes, we definitely disagree.
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AC2EU

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Re: Beware of NN3V
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2022, 07:13:22 PM »

There is no suggestion that the OP's purchase was contingent on shipping cost - quite the contrary in his statement. But he obviously did need the shipping cost to finalise payment etc.

Gazumping is a commercially and ethically corrosive practice on any scale but there's no shortage of people willing to defend the indefensible. So yes, we definitely disagree.

Had to look up "gazumping" . According to the definition, it does not apply in this case.
He didn't raise the offered price to the OP, but simply sold it to someone else.
In fact, the deal wasn't consumated at point either.
Perhaps the other guy sent the paypal money first where the OP didn't. I didn't see where any money needed to be refunded to the OP.
In the US,  a contract has a "meeting of the minds" and "consideration" (money)
The OP wasn't "considerate"  ;D. Money talks, BS walks...  :'(
Another applicable  expression would be "put up or shut up"

You guys down under don't understand capitalism or the 2nd amendment. I think It's a cultural difference thing...

I like that gazumping word, though, but nobody around here would know what I was talking about if I used it.
 ;D

N7EKU

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Re: Beware of NN3V
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2022, 07:21:05 PM »

Gazumping
Gazumping occurs when a seller accepts a verbal offer on the property from one potential buyer, but then accepts a higher offer from someone else. It can also refer to the seller raising the asking price or asking for more money at the last minute, after previously verbally agreeing to a lower one. Wikipedia
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Mark -- N7EKU/VE3

VK6HP

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Re: Beware of NN3V
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2022, 07:23:28 PM »

The OP clearly mentioned that the seller had accepted a better price.  That fits a gazumping definition as it's used here.

Common decency and honesty may well be just a cultural thing, but I'd hope not.
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SWMAN

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Re: Beware of NN3V
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2022, 08:39:59 PM »

EU.  I thought that the 2nd amendment was the Right to keep and bear arms, more of a gun issue than a trading and selling issue ?  Maybe I’m wrong !
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AI5BC

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Re: Beware of NN3V
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2022, 10:26:08 AM »

You guys down under don't understand capitalism or the 2nd amendment.

Apparently, you do not understand either, the 2nd amendment is your right to own firearms.
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SWMAN

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Re: Beware of NN3V
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2022, 12:30:24 PM »

  BC.  THANK YOU !!
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KD6VXI

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Re: Beware of NN3V
« Reply #22 on: July 08, 2022, 05:59:14 AM »

Where was the delay? The OP undertook to buy the unit and asked for a shipping cost to allow the transaction to be completed; the seller confirms the unit is still available and requests a post code, which the OP promptly supplies.  What more could he have done?

If the seller had no intention of a sale involving shipping he should have made that clear at the outset and not engaged with the OP.  Once he began a process it should have been completed in good faith.  Poor ethics, indeed.

Let's just agree we disagree. First cash wins every time in my book unless there was a verbal contract. Asking about shipping is not a contract cause if the shipping is too much, they may reject the deal. That was the delay by my estimation.

As for the other paying more...well isn't that the prerogative of the other buyer to do to make sure he gets the sale? And I should turn down the deal because he offers more then asked?

He did say he was going to buy it.  How is he supposed to pay for it if he doesn't know the total cost.  He asked for the shipping charges so he could send the funds either electronically or other.

Saying you will buy it and asking for the total shipped is a verbal contract that he was going to purchase.

I agree the first person with the funds is usually going to get the item, but your entire premise is based upon a fallacy.

He did, in fact, offer to buy it.  He then asked the guy how much the shipping would be, so he could complete the transaction.

To me, that is a contract to purchase.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
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W9FIB

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Re: Beware of NN3V
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2022, 07:09:29 AM »

Where was the delay? The OP undertook to buy the unit and asked for a shipping cost to allow the transaction to be completed; the seller confirms the unit is still available and requests a post code, which the OP promptly supplies.  What more could he have done?

If the seller had no intention of a sale involving shipping he should have made that clear at the outset and not engaged with the OP.  Once he began a process it should have been completed in good faith.  Poor ethics, indeed.

Let's just agree we disagree. First cash wins every time in my book unless there was a verbal contract. Asking about shipping is not a contract cause if the shipping is too much, they may reject the deal. That was the delay by my estimation.

As for the other paying more...well isn't that the prerogative of the other buyer to do to make sure he gets the sale? And I should turn down the deal because he offers more then asked?

He did say he was going to buy it.  How is he supposed to pay for it if he doesn't know the total cost.  He asked for the shipping charges so he could send the funds either electronically or other.

Saying you will buy it and asking for the total shipped is a verbal contract that he was going to purchase.

I agree the first person with the funds is usually going to get the item, but your entire premise is based upon a fallacy.

He did, in fact, offer to buy it.  He then asked the guy how much the shipping would be, so he could complete the transaction.

To me, that is a contract to purchase.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI

Not to me. First cash wins.  Go to an auction and bid. someone out bids you, yet by nature your bid is a verbal contract. Yet you didn't win it. You failed to bid, so you removed yourself from the contract.

So, it boils down to what IS a contract. I can say I want to buy it, but yet not get it. Why? Because more than 1 person said they want it. So, the seller needs to make a choice of who wins and who loses. Who will be happy and who will be angry. Called supply and demand. Welcome to the world via capitalism.
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73, Stan
Travelling the world one signal at a time.

AC2EU

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Re: Beware of NN3V
« Reply #24 on: July 09, 2022, 10:40:11 AM »

EU.  I thought that the 2nd amendment was the Right to keep and bear arms, more of a gun issue than a trading and selling issue ?  Maybe I’m wrong !

Yes, but they are very much "anti-gun" , whereas we, for the most part, prefer the right to bear arms. which was one of the "cultural differences".

Since this post, I just had a transaction with a person who is sending me a very expensive piece of test equipment " for my evaluation and eventual purchase, if it meets my approval" While I appreciate the trust he has placed in me, I think this is a poor way to conduct business in the "real world". I had offered to PayPal him.

It was offered it to me at a price a week, prior, but I took some time to "think about it". Had he sold it to someone else in the mean time for a better price would have been on me.

Anyway, the point is that people see the world through their own cultural and experiential lens. It's hard to say what is the "right way" or "wrong way" as long as no one gets ripped off. The seller left the OP in no worse shape than when they started.

Has anyone considered that the OP may have been taking advantage of the seller's ignorance of the value? Perhaps he was going to re-sell it for a profit?

There are always AT LEAST two side to the story...did we get all the FACTS?
 

AI5BC

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Re: Beware of NN3V
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2022, 07:05:39 AM »

Yes, but they are very much "anti-gun" , whereas we, for the most part, prefer the right to bear arms. which was one of the "cultural differences".
Correct, we Americans reserve the right to blow someone's head off in a moment's notice. How many hours as a kid did you spend watching and laughing at the TV when Elmer Fud and Yosemite Sam shooting people, and Popeye beating people senseless. To this day the university I attended mascot carries guns pretending to shoot the opposing team members.   
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AC2EU

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Re: Beware of NN3V
« Reply #26 on: July 10, 2022, 09:13:04 AM »

Yes, but they are very much "anti-gun" , whereas we, for the most part, prefer the right to bear arms. which was one of the "cultural differences".
Correct, we Americans reserve the right to blow someone's head off in a moment's notice. How many hours as a kid did you spend watching and laughing at the TV when Elmer Fud and Yosemite Sam shooting people, and Popeye beating people senseless. To this day the university I attended mascot carries guns pretending to shoot the opposing team members.   

Note that I included you by saying "for the most part". I respect your opinion.

There was a recent mass shooting in Denmark and Shinzo Abe was assassinated in Japan.
Both of these countries have strict gun laws.
This proves that if some lunatic has murder on their mind, they will find a way to kill.

Ironically, I don't own any guns that require a permit, but want to reserve my right to do so.

The second amendment was/is about hunting, personal protection and a possible deterrent our government .

Looks like 100 cops couldn't figure out how to stop a crazy person in Texas. Maybe we DO need to defend OURSELVES .
With all of the vilification of police, they have become afraid to do their jobs.

For the staggering number guns in the US , there is very little gun violence from normal citizens. Most of it is from crazies and street gangs using illegal guns. These are the issues that need to be addressed, not the right to bear arms...

K3UIM

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Re: Beware of NN3V
« Reply #27 on: July 10, 2022, 10:59:26 AM »

+1, EU
Charlie
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Charlie. K3UIM
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Where I am: You will be!
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SWMAN

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Re: Beware of NN3V
« Reply #28 on: July 10, 2022, 03:05:23 PM »

EU,
 The situation in south Texas. The main problem was that all those police were chicken sh.. to go in and get that punk. Just plain chicken sh..  that’s all.
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VK6HP

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Re: Beware of NN3V
« Reply #29 on: July 10, 2022, 10:12:34 PM »

EU.  I thought that the 2nd amendment was the Right to keep and bear arms, more of a gun issue than a trading and selling issue ?  Maybe I’m wrong !

Yes, but they are very much "anti-gun" , whereas we, for the most part, prefer the right to bear arms. which was one of the "cultural differences".

Since this post, I just had a transaction with a person who is sending me a very expensive piece of test equipment " for my evaluation and eventual purchase, if it meets my approval" While I appreciate the trust he has placed in me, I think this is a poor way to conduct business in the "real world". I had offered to PayPal him.

It was offered it to me at a price a week, prior, but I took some time to "think about it". Had he sold it to someone else in the mean time for a better price would have been on me.

Anyway, the point is that people see the world through their own cultural and experiential lens. It's hard to say what is the "right way" or "wrong way" as long as no one gets ripped off. The seller left the OP in no worse shape than when they started.

Has anyone considered that the OP may have been taking advantage of the seller's ignorance of the value? Perhaps he was going to re-sell it for a profit?

There are always AT LEAST two side to the story...did we get all the FACTS?

Well, perhaps as one of those strange, not to be named, "others" I'll have one more go.

Regarding the original post, no-one is arguing there was any illegality.  The seller and buyer engaged in a sale and offer (not auction) process, which was in progress. No consideration, financial or other, had changed hands so in terms of a contract, there was no breach, at least in the law as it applies here.  In that sense the buyer was no worse off but he asserts, and I agree, that the purchaser unilaterally accepting a third party offer constitutes unethical behaviour.  Just as the seller could technically shut down the process, the buyer has a right to honestly report what he sees as a breach of ethics.  It's for the greater good that he did so.

There are many red herrings that can be introduced but there are enough different viewpoints arising from the facts as reported, without seeking to re-write the OP's post for him.

I didn't miss the original reference to the US 2nd amendment but regarded it as an attempt to introduce unwarranted prejudice to a simple discussion of ethics.  But on gun violence, you're probably more familiar than I am with comparative studies such as one published in the Journal of the American Medical Association (https://www.healthdata.org/acting-data/gun-violence-united-states-outlier).  I won't comment on the US situation but would note that many Australians regard the numbers for this country as still too high and look to more effective restrictions and law enforcement.  While there's no room for complacency I observe that gun advocates, local and imported, see their cause do badly at the ballot box.  In the obligatory, preferential, rigorously conducted elections any occasional success they have is more often than not the result of quirks in preference distribution.  Which is, as the larger results consistently show, a good thing in the minds of the overwhelming majority.

« Last Edit: July 10, 2022, 10:24:12 PM by VK6HP »
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