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Author Topic: Battery charger surge protector...  (Read 389 times)

KT0DD

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Battery charger surge protector...
« on: July 08, 2022, 04:21:09 AM »

Hello, I have a Kenwood TS480HX 200 watt / 41amp draw radio. I want to put it on battery backup power with an "automatic" charger attached 24/7. When I first tried this, it seemed to confuse the battery charger (connected directly to the battery) when I transmitted SSB @ 200 watts / 41 amps draw and it was going on/ off /hi/lo charge all over the place. Do I need to install a huge filter capacitor between the charger and battery, or are there other / better solutions? Thanks.

Todd - KT0DD
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W9IQ

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Re: Battery charger surge protector...
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2022, 04:51:41 AM »

I would first test the radio with the battery alone (no charger). Can the battery adequately supply the required energy? If not, it is not a workable backup solution.

I have found that many smart chargers are easily confused in the presence of strong RF. Try applying some large type 31 ferrite cores to the power cable and the DC cables of the charger. Make certain both DC leads are wound on the same core.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

K5LXP

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Re: Battery charger surge protector...
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2022, 06:26:01 AM »

Agree with IQ, even a "smart" charger will have a timed sequence it will go through once it detects the battery voltage dipping under load.  One way to know if it's RFI for sure is to test into a dummy load and see if it still acts wonky.

Mark K5LXP
Albuquerque, NM
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AI5BC

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Re: Battery charger surge protector...
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2022, 06:57:06 AM »

Todd you are going to need a 200 to 400 AH battery to deliver 41 amps of current. I seriously doubt you have a pair of golf cart batteries in which case your charger is grossly undersized along with your battery.
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KT0DD

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Re: Battery charger surge protector...
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2022, 10:09:17 AM »

Todd you are going to need a 200 to 400 AH battery to deliver 41 amps of current. I seriously doubt you have a pair of golf cart batteries in which case your charger is grossly undersized along with your battery.

This seems rather odd to me, since Kenwood designed the TS480HX 200 watt mobile to be powered off an automobile starting battery / alterrnator configuration, albeit most likely SSB P.E.P. ratings only. That's all I'm interested in, no CW / AM / FM or other carrier modes. looking for I.C.A.S. not C.C.S duty cycle.
 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 10:14:48 AM by KT0DD »
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KT0DD

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Re: Battery charger surge protector...
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2022, 10:11:19 AM »

I would first test the radio with the battery alone (no charger). Can the battery adequately supply the required energy? If not, it is not a workable backup solution.

I have found that many smart chargers are easily confused in the presence of strong RF. Try applying some large type 31 ferrite cores to the power cable and the DC cables of the charger. Make certain both DC leads are wound on the same core.

- Glenn W9IQ

Here's the battery...https://www.walmart.com/ip/EverStart-Platinum-AGM-Battery-Group-Size-H8-12-Volt-900-CCA/40647529?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=0&wl13=1280&adid=2222222227740647529_117755028669_12420145346&wmlspartner=wmtlabs&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=501107745824&wl4=aud-1430889456190:pla-293946777986&wl5=9029183&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=8175035&wl11=local&wl12=40647529&wl13=1280&veh=sem_LIA&gclid=CjwKCAjwxZqSBhAHEiwASr9n9JyEZZ8hgXLhK4L4VB0w8zHoqHa_t4Gxyxgh3xxZ8bgdz0-ca6SQmBoC1X8QAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds
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AI5BC

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Re: Battery charger surge protector...
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2022, 12:29:32 PM »


This seems rather odd to me, since Kenwood designed the TS480HX 200 watt mobile to be powered off an automobile starting battery / alterrnator configuration

Not so much if you understand how batteries are made and the sub types. You are referring to Automotive Cranking batteries designed to deliver extremely high short burst of current and recharged extremely fast, then float as the alternator supplies all electrical energy when the engine is running.  If you see a battery with a CCA or HCA raring you know instantly it is a Cranking Battery and the last thing you want for cycle service. Deep cycle batteries wil not have any cranking amp specs, only Amp Hours at various discharge rates. Hybrids will have dual rating, but not deep cycle FLA batteries. Hybrids are typically AGM jelly roll design for the top performers like Concord and Odessey.   

You want a true deep cycle or what is known as a Hybrid deep cycle like a Marine, Solar, or RV batteries. Deep cycle batteries have much heavier thicker plates that completely fill the battery jar to obtain the capacity and material required for numerous recharges and AH capacity. This limits the surface area of the plates and results in higher internal battery resistance which limits current. Whereas a cranking battery has more thinner plates that do not fill the battery jar to allow for debris settlement.  The thinner the plate, the more you can put in the jar to increase surface area lowering internal resistance and allowing much higher currents at the cost of capacity and cycle life.

For deep cycle and hybrid batteries, you want to limit discharge rates to no lower than C/4 (AGM) to C/6 (FLA). Otherwise, you will have excessive voltage drop greater then 1/2 volt.  For a 40-amp load demands at least a 160 AH AGM battery, that will be discharged in 2 hours at a C/4 rate. Sure, a car battery can deliver 40-amps without excessive voltage sag for a few minutes until exhausted. Cranking batteries do not have many discharge cycles, they are not made for it.

Get yourself a good Marine or RV battery. with a proper float charger of 10-amps.
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W9IQ

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Re: Battery charger surge protector...
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2022, 12:33:51 PM »

This seems rather odd to me, since Kenwood designed the TS480HX 200 watt mobile to be powered off an automobile starting battery / alterrnator configuration, albeit most likely SSB P.E.P. ratings only. That's all I'm interested in, no CW / AM / FM or other carrier modes. looking for I.C.A.S. not C.C.S duty cycle.

The other factor to consider is that the alternator on a passenger vehicle has at least 40 amps of charging capacity. If you couple this with the duty factor of SSB/CW operation, running that radio off of vehicle power isn't out of the question - at least when the balance of the vehicle electrical load is moderate.

- Glenn W9IQ
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- Glenn W9IQ

God runs electromagnetics on Monday, Wednesday and Friday by the wave theory and the devil runs it on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday by the Quantum theory.

W7CXC

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Re: Battery charger surge protector...
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2022, 12:47:03 PM »

My $0.02.... the long response is right on. Get a NAPA 8301 true deep cycle battery ( or something like that). Use it to run the radio. The charger should not be left on the battery when you are using the radio. "Modern" auto chargers get easily confused when the battery voltage dances around as they assume a faulty battery or bad connection. Problem/concern solved. 73's
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WA3SKN

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Re: Battery charger surge protector...
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2022, 01:38:16 PM »

What is the voltage under load to the radio when transmitting into a known good dummy load?
Sounds like it is under the 13.8v +/- 15% specs of the radio.
Otherwise, it sounds like RF is driving the charger "nuts"!, and more filtering is required.

-Mike.
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K6AER

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Re: Battery charger surge protector...
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2022, 08:17:20 PM »

This has been an interesting thread.

My station is 100% solar. I have 8ea. 150 AH marine wet cell trolling batteries for storage. These batteries were purchased at NAPA for $92 each. The batteries feed a 4000 watt AMIS split phase inverter at 24 volts. That runs the air conditioner and tube linear. The rest of the station is 12 volts including the LED lightning.

I case of no sunshine and a heavy night of operation, the batteries can also be charged with a 90 Amp IOTA switch mode RV charging supply. I have found the IOTA supplies are very good around RF. They have a militance charge, float charge and every month they will provide a equalize charge of 14.4 volts.

As mentioned by other in the thread, true RV batteries have much more storage (constant amp hours) than cranking amps. Generally toroids on the AC input and DC output will solve RF problems. Also, the addition of .1 MFd caps on the input and output to frame ground will also help a lot.

How far is your antenna from the operating position? The antenna at 200 watts should be at least 50 feet away. Is the antenna a vertical or a balanced antenna like a dipole? My experience is dipoles have less near filed RF into the shack.

Just as a rule of thumb for battery operation, the charger should be capable of running the radio without the battery.

Most cars have at least a 100 amp alternator. My truck has a 250 amp Ambulance service from Power Sonic.

One last note;  a 12 volt battery is 12.7 volts at full charge. As a result, your radio is specified for 13.8 volts will produce 30% less power at 12.7 volts.


73, Mike K6AER
« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 08:21:03 PM by K6AER »
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KT0DD

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Re: Battery charger surge protector...
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2022, 08:44:38 PM »

I will look into the IOTA 90 amp or bigger charger. I'll also look at NAPA deep cycle good size batteries. I am not looking for a battery powered station that has to run 200W days on end without recharging. Solar / generator charging will be incorporated at a later point. Mainly I'm looking for something to cover power outages that are almost always of short duration, 3-4 hours max. where I live and they are very rare at that. I know power consumption is a consideration in any emergency backup situation. My plan is to run the radio at 50-60 watts in an outage, and only turn it to wide open 200W if I'm not being heard well in an
emergency / necessary communication. I do well with my current antennas (2 Dipoles) and my main rig, a Yaesu FTDX10 set at 50-60 watts to drive my AL80B, but many times I don't turn the amp on as I do just fine at amp driving levels barefoot. If we are looking at long term outages due to an unforseen natural disaster or the like, I hope to have a decent portable generator that runs gas / propane and can run 6000-7000 watts at 120 V / 220V by the end of this year. My portable antenna will be an End fed Ultimax 100 for emergency quick deployment from my vehicle, or my Eagle One telescoping 31ft tripod mounted antenna with a 35 ft top clip on extention wire to allow for better 75 meter operation. Antenna tuner will always be used. Antennas will be fed with 60 ft. of DX Engineering RG8X coax to a line isolator / common mode choke at the end and then a short pigtail to the tuner. The coax will be an active part of the antenna with this configuration, as it is simpler for rapid deployment in a camping or e-comm situation not fiddling with multiple ground radials. I have used this type of antenna at my last residence which was a duplex with a small backyard and I had surprisingly good results on 75 / 40m and fairly good DX performance on 20-10M considering the space I had to work with.

Thanks.

Todd - KT0DD
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W5OT

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Re: Battery charger surge protector...
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2022, 11:50:22 AM »

http://www.westmountainradio.com/product_info.php?products_id=epic-pwrgate
West Mountain Epic PWRgate.  40A continuous output, instant switch from power supply to/from battery, charges battery while on power supply, also can be charged with solar panel.   

Sounds like what you are looking for to charge your battery while you are operating.  Read the info for more specific details.
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