Print

[AF5CC]

If you want to save even more time, use FT4.  Wish more people were on that mode.

73 John AF5CC

[VA3VF]

I suspect it's a holdover from VHF and UHF operations where contacts are typically more local and "DX" is measured on different scale.

Correct, it's a holdover from WSJT, before the -X was added. Back in those days JT modes were mostly in the "domain" of EME operators and other VHF/UHF pursuits.

Then came Joe Large, W6CQZ. WSJT was a somewhat "complex" package, W6CQZ released JT65-HF, a much more user friendly version of WSJT and targeting HF operators. It was thanks to it that I got involved with the JT modes.

W6CQZ stopped developing JT65-HF, but the "torch" was then taken by HB9HQZ.

It was around this time, or a little later, that WSJT became WSJT-X, and a lot more user friendly.

From then on lots of discussions went back and forth, not always nice. I had had enough with some of the "antics" and stepped back to become just a "dumb" user.

Then came JTDX, and it's what I've been using since then. If memory serves, some of the changes that were later added to WSJT-X had its beginnings, or evolved, with JTDX. The JTDX developers were more open to suggestions, in addition to focusing on HF only.

Today there are at least 3 or 4 others forks of WSJT-X out there. Test them all. Use the one that suits your interests.

[VA3VF]

If you want to save even more time, use FT4.  Wish more people were on that mode.

Not always the case, as it's less sensitive it requires more repeats sometimes.

That said, I've been using it more and more. It seems to be mostly a 20m mode, that's where I use it. FT8's success makes 20m unusable sometimes, too crowded.

[VA3VF]

For those interested in collecting grids on HF, specially of the "wet" kind, look for RA0LQ/MM.

He uses LoTW and updates the grid as he moves around.

Also on eQSL.

[AF5CC]

UW5EJX/MM is another one handing out all water grids and grid fields, who uploads to LOTW.  I have worked him several times on FT8.

73 John AF5CC

[VA3VF]

UW5EJX/MM is another one handing out all water grids and grid fields, who uploads to LOTW.  I have worked him several times on FT8.

This is good info now that I'm interested in this chase. I overlooked /MM stations before.

Still no need to send my grid square. 

Thanks.

[VA3VF]

For those that think a grid square is an indispensible part of an FT8 exchange here's an excerpt from...

He's not alone, there are many others that say/ask the same thing.

Hopefully the "standard message" advocates will not waste the DX's time and make it harder for the rest of us to work a new one.

[AF5CC]

Another way to shorten FT8 QSOs would be for everyone to run in contest mode and to dispense with the funny little numbers signal reports:

Me:  CQ AF5CC EM04
DX: AF5CC P5DX PM45
Me: P5DX R73
DX: AF5CC 73

QSO is over.  Technically the last exchange of the 73 isn't even needed, so we could get by with a total of 3 transmissions between the 2 of us. That is how it is done in many contests.

73 John AF5CC

[WO7R]

I used to work at eliminating the 73 stuff, too.  Gave up long ago.

Why?  Some stations (and you never know who it is) insist on the 73.  So, I try to give it to them, especially when they send RRR instead of RR73.

One thing FT8 has taught me is that there is way more time than anyone thinks.

I've seen a lot of resident DX "clearing out" countries with basic FT8 at a max rate of about 40 QSOs an hour.  If someone had told me that could be done early in my DX career, I would not have believed it.  But, the math works:

Suppose the DX does as little as 10 hours a week?  That's 400 Qs a week, 8000 in twenty weeks and closing in on 20,000 in an entire year.  20K per year is about the minimum necessary for a DXpedition to work most current ops uniquely.  You can fiddle with the constants, but any reasonable assumptions gets to that kind of annual total.

There are special cases (e.g. 6m multi-hop) but even there, I try and send the 73 just to make damn sure of a Q on a difficult path.

[N6YWU]

The signal reports on FT8 are actually measured (unless using faulty software), not just useless 5NN's (lying publicly to complete a QSO faster).  Thus the signal reports plus the grid squares on FT8 also generate valuable statistical propagation data for researchers monitoring these exchanges.

[AF5CC]

They only give propagation data up to a point.  They actually measure the S/N ratio of the receiving station.  If a station lives in a very noisy QTH RFwise, they could give a very low report, even on a very strong opening.

73 John AF5CC

[VA3VF]

Research is fine and encouraged, but it's an add-on. Let's not handicap a hamradio mode suited for DXing in the name of research that may or may not be conducted.

PSKReporter and/or the RBN can provide a lot of data, even if a few "rebels" don't send grid squares.

Then there is WSPR, it's more suited for data collection than FT8, albeit with less traffic. To compensate for that, most WSPR stations are on the air everyday, 24 hours a day.

[K0RS]

The signal reports on FT8 are actually measured (unless using faulty software), not just useless 5NN's (lying publicly to complete a QSO faster).  Thus the signal reports plus the grid squares on FT8 also generate valuable statistical propagation data for researchers monitoring these exchanges.

Measured relative to other stations in the passband.  Actually pretty useless too, except in a very general sense.  Since the radio's passband is only as wide as an SSB signal with perhaps scores of individual signals crammed into that space, one or two really strong will affect the receiver AGC and reduce the weaker signal's report.  Next time I'm on the research team doing a valuable statistical propagation survey I'll make sure to look up each station's actual QTH for the data to enter in the spreadsheet.  In the meantime watching the calls scroll past will give me an excellent seat-of-the-pants feel for band conditions.  No signals?  Band closed...move on.

They only give propagation data up to a point.  They actually measure the S/N ratio of the receiving station.  If a station lives in a very noisy QTH RFwise, they could give a very low report, even on a very strong opening.

73 John AF5CC

Correct.

[K4HB]

What have we learned from this discussion? Well, one thing really stands out to me. Opinions are like something else... Everyone has one and think everyone else's stinks. (Send with Tx1, send with TX2, do it my way or you'll be ignored) As for "to send a grid or not send a grid," what is the answer? They only matter to me when working VHF, because I work them for VUCC. But from my ALL.txt file for this year, some want grids for HF as well. Here it is...

220110_215445    14.074 Rx FT8    -11  0.1 1603 NO GRID NO Q
220129_131200     3.573 Rx FT8    -15  0.1 2385 GRID??
220222_174730    24.915 Rx FT8      1  0.0 1642 CALLWITH GRID
220222_180400    24.915 Rx FT8      0  0.0 1649 N4EXA GRID???
220227_012000     3.573 Rx FT8    -24  0.8 1941 GRID PSE
220303_190715    24.915 Rx FT8     -2  0.0 1849 GRID ??
220311_201630    24.915 Rx FT8    -13  0.2 2326 UR GRID
220318_190315    24.915 Rx FT8     -6  0.1  745 EA7KFL GRID??
220318_210445    24.915 Rx FT8     -3  0.3 1282 CALLWITH GRID
220404_225730    14.074 Rx FT8     -4  0.2  531 SV5SKD GRID?
220418_002015    10.136 Rx FT8      9  0.7 1799 DOV WHAT GRID
220426_222830    14.074 Rx FT8      5  0.2 1865 N4EXA GRID?
220504_015315    10.136 Rx FT8     -6  0.1 2640 KE5PCV GRID
220507_004445     7.074 Rx FT8     -3  0.1 1546 <MM0HVU> URGRID
220507_004745     7.074 Rx FT8      2  0.4 1546 CQ CALL GRID
220518_142445    21.074 Rx FT8     -8  0.2  474 M7CLI GRID??

220603_150345    50.313 Rx FT8    -13  0.1 1317 NEED GRID SQ
220607_143030    50.313 Rx FT8     -1 -0.0  950 WHAT GRID GRI
220612_212845    50.313 Rx FT8      3  0.1 1322 ON7GB GRID CM
220613_023930    50.313 Rx FT8      2  0.1 2580 WB2WPM GRID P
220613_235615    50.313 Rx FT8    -15  0.2  929 W5ADD GRID??
220619_005030    50.313 Rx FT8     11  0.1 1554 K9OHI GRID?
220621_211330    50.313 Rx FT8     -5  0.1 1367 NO GRID NO QS
220624_160745    50.313 Rx FT8      4  0.2 2166 N4ST GRID PL
220629_000400    50.313 Rx FT8    -11  0.2 1354 K8GI UR GRID?
220702_014045    50.313 Rx FT8     15  0.1 2697 KH2TJ GRID
220702_020230    50.313 Rx FT8     -4  0.1 2697 WB4JPG GRID
220702_190000    50.313 Rx FT8     20  0.2 1426 K9UO GRID 1ST
220713_154245    50.313 Rx FT8     27 -0.8 1843 DXCALL GRID?
220717_203645    50.313 Rx FT8     -4  0.1 2541 KD5OMJ GRID?
220723_173415    50.313 Rx FT8    -17  0.1 1562 GRID PL
220723_173445    50.313 Rx FT8    -17  0.1 1562 W4IMD GRID PL
220723_195745    50.313 Rx FT8     -8 -0.0 2695 UP UR GRID

What I typically do is watch how someone is calling. If they are always calling with their grid, I'll call with mine if I call them. And likewise, I'll call with Tx2 if that's how they are calling. I very seldom call a station unless I need it for something. I don't want to go against the grain and not be logged. For that same reason, I'll send the final 73, even though I don't think it's necessary.

There's anothert aspect of this discussion, but I'll start a new topic for it.

[VA3VF]

What have we learned from this discussion?

People are free to do what *I* want. 

There's anothert aspect of this discussion, but I'll start a new topic for it.

Anxiously waiting.