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Author Topic: Differences in HF Radio's today  (Read 891 times)

KX2T

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Differences in HF Radio's today
« on: September 06, 2022, 06:16:18 AM »

Differences in HF Radio's today, yes they all either bug or appeal to the ham radio buying public. Take for example two very good radio's from Icom and Kenwood, the Icom is an easy peasy radio, takes very little knowledge to get started, yes it has menus but its easy to use. Now lets go to the Kenwood TS590S/SG another easy radio to use, not as many menus and has more front panel controls so this appeals to older generations of hams. Now we look Yaesu's FTDX10, well this rig is a cup above the other two cause the RX section is that good but the operational ability takes some time to master, its not easy peasy cause you need to RTFM but anyone coming from another older Yaesu has no issues but this does more than the original stock K3 which is and will be a very complicated radio for the masses but has had a cult like following.

You also have the stand alone SDR radio's from Flex and Anan, these are in a different group cause the Flex is king of remote shack operation, its the mouse click away radio, appeals to computer type and once mastered its an easy radio to use but there is a learning curve but old dogs have been able to master it. Then you have the Anan which is the computer geeks dream machine, there is NO MANUAL its all run by firmware and software developed by users so its like a book of the month club but its performance is a cut above especially when it comes to noise reduction but its not easy peasy, its a hard radio to learn but most buyers take on that challenge or its seen on the used for sale shelf very fast.

Next you have the higher end radios such as the FTDX101D/MP, the Icom 7610, and the Kenwood TS890S, well these radio's are in a different class cause you have to RTFM if you wanna really get down to what these radio's can really do or your just buying the radio to impress your buddies and don't really understand how to make real use of all the features. The only problem I see with the Yaesu FTDX101D is the radio does soo much it frustrates allot of users, either they don't read or understand the manual or they get confused with the large array of controls but this radio is one of the best DX and contesting rigs out there but again someone who has had Yaesu's before don't find any issues with the rig but you still have that learning curve. Next is the Icom which offeres two RX sections like the FTDX101 series but its a little light on controlling these two RX sections so there is another learning curve to get used to same double access controls or lack of. This can be solved with buying there IC7851 but most don't have $12k plus to plunk down on a radio but the 7610 is I would say is one of the easier hi end rigs to use but is far more complicated than the 7300. Next is the TS890 which is like a 590 on steroids', its another top RX section and has more menus on the rig which I find most users don't really use all that much but it has the right amount of controls and menus to make most happy. With all these radio's there is the GUI which seems like that is why some buy radio's over others yes its the display which seems to drive the markets on who buys what today, its not how good the RX section is but the GUI which in our past has never had that much influence in ones purchase but like everything else since the cell phones big displays and tablet market this is a driving force plus this is why the stand alone sdr box does soo well its because of the GUI.

The only radio's above that I have not owned or used are the Anan and the 7851 but have had lost of time with the 590,7300,ftdx10 and the FTDX101D in which I have used in my own personal station but have used the Flex, 890S at other stations so your mileage may vary but I find when talking with friends on the air that certain radio's do present some operator confusion in how to use and once the op gets used to some radio's operation its very hard for them to get used to another. I have no issues with any and currently own the 101d and yes there was a learning cure but once that is over it easy for me to use but for some it seems hard but here again I have owned a few yeasu's in my past. I would say that for some a radio like the 7300 or the 590 is more than enough radio than they need cause of the easy peasy use, either present any challenges in operating but if you want a better RX well the you gotta try an read that manual cause the FTDX10 is better in the just above entry level.

There is a new Yaesu coming out which appears to be Yaesu's  first SDR radio, its not a superhet so who knows cause the block diagram shows no roofing filter or mixer but time will tell if it is a simple rig to use but it very well may give the 7300 a run for its money plus have the DVI display output but at the $1k price its looks like a very good entry level simple rig to use, time will tell. If all these new radio's are way to much to use just fin a good HW101 and PS and be happy!
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G8FXC

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Re: Differences in HF Radio's today
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2022, 06:33:09 AM »

...
There is a new Yaesu coming out which appears to be Yaesu's  first SDR radio, its not a superhet so who knows cause the block diagram shows no roofing filter or mixer ...
The FTdx10D and FTdx101D are both SDR radios - they just put the SDR behind a superhet front end which helps to avoid the ADC overload that can be a problem for direct sampling SDRs.

Martin (G8FXC)
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W1VT

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Re: Differences in HF Radio's today
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2022, 08:06:04 AM »

The new radios have much better S meters; a very obvious benefit of going to the Software Defined Radio approach.
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NA4IT

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Re: Differences in HF Radio's today
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2022, 09:24:29 AM »

Tubes vs Transistors vs No See Um components
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K4GTE

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Re: Differences in HF Radio's today
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2022, 10:03:28 AM »

The current offerings are light years ahead of what was available just 20 years ago. SDR is the future, and performance gets better every year.
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KX2T

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Re: Differences in HF Radio's today
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2022, 05:55:51 PM »

Martin the FTDX10 and FTDX101D/MP are not a true SDR radio, they have a front end which is a very well designed superhet with a mixer and 9Mhz roofing filters almost like the rigs that were single conversion going back 30 years ago. The back end is an sdr but the radio is a half bread cause it uses a traditional front end but its back end uses a FPGA then DSP stage. The FPGA is used cause it also takes a sample of the RF before the mixer and roofs to a section just for the radio's display nothing else.
True SDR's like the 7300 and 7610 have no mixer, no conversion and everything is done but the numbers but both of these are like the stand alone SDR's but with knobs and menus systems to control the rig operation. The new FT710 according to its block diagram appears to be Yaesu's first SDR radio with knobs, has no mixer, not sure what the FPGA is yet but they claim 18 bit A/D converters so who knows. This may be the start of Yaesu going into the sdr only market but it looks like there radio is like the 7300, basic but good but we will see how it fares in the next few months.

Yes radio's today are light years better but there are still some of the radio's that are still playing on the air every day that sound great from 35 year old stock!
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G8FXC

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Re: Differences in HF Radio's today
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2022, 12:02:49 AM »

Martin the FTDX10 and FTDX101D/MP are not a true SDR radio, they have a front end which is a very well designed superhet with a mixer and 9Mhz roofing filters almost like the rigs that were single conversion going back 30 years ago. The back end is an sdr but the radio is a half bread cause it uses a traditional front end but its back end uses a FPGA then DSP stage. The FPGA is used cause it also takes a sample of the RF before the mixer and roofs to a section just for the radio's display nothing else.
True SDR's like the 7300 and 7610 have no mixer, no conversion and everything is done but the numbers but both of these are like the stand alone SDR's but with knobs and menus systems to control the rig operation. The new FT710 according to its block diagram appears to be Yaesu's first SDR radio with knobs, has no mixer, not sure what the FPGA is yet but they claim 18 bit A/D converters so who knows. This may be the start of Yaesu going into the sdr only market but it looks like there radio is like the 7300, basic but good but we will see how it fares in the next few months.

Yes radio's today are light years better but there are still some of the radio's that are still playing on the air every day that sound great from 35 year old stock!

There is nothing that says that an SDR has to be direct sampling. Until quite recently, the cost of A/D converters able to sample at upwards of 100MHz has been so high that only the military could consider it. To quote Wikipedia :

"A typical amateur software radio uses a direct conversion receiver. Unlike direct conversion receivers of the more distant past, the mixer technologies used are based on the quadrature sampling detector and the quadrature sampling exciter.[14][15][16][17]

The receiver performance of this line of SDRs is directly related to the dynamic range of the analog-to-digital converters (ADCs) utilized.[18] Radio frequency signals are down converted to the audio frequency band, which is sampled by a high performance audio frequency ADC. First generation SDRs used a 44 kHz PC sound card to provide ADC functionality. The newer software defined radios use embedded high performance ADCs that provide higher dynamic range and are more resistant to noise and RF interference."

The description in the ARRL handbook is similar.

Well accepted SDR receivers like the SDRPlay range will tune up to 1GHz, or more - they are certainly not sampling at those rates. The idea of reducing the RF frequency down to more manageable levels before moving into the digital domain is very well established. Yaesu are unusual in that they have adopted conventional superhet architectures to achieve this - the direct conversion approach is more common, but it does not permit the inclusion of roofing filters to protect the A/D converter.

The description of the FT710 is ambiguous - the block diagram looks more like a 7300, but the text refers to a superhet architecture and lists the IF as 18kHz.

Martin (G8FXC)
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KX2T

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Re: Differences in HF Radio's today
« Reply #7 on: September 08, 2022, 08:53:38 AM »

Martin the 18Khz is what is used for the DSP section but the new 710 does have a FPGA which is the brains of the system but the heavy lifting is still done by the A/D's. I think Yaesu wanted to keep the superhet front end on the FTDX101D/MP and the Ten to be able to hit the blocking numbers that they wanted to do which were anywhere between 20 to 25db better than were most of the SDR rigs that hit the market such as the Flex, Icom's, Anan and such. Most of the SDR types such as these were floundering between 120 to 125db so they had to up the game plus according to the ARRL review the lab sated that it far exceeds the 145db number in blocking.
It reminds me of when the original FT1000MP came out, its blocking was better than 140db but the phase noise didn't match to what they are producing now so they have come a long way from those days of producing a better stiffer front end with an excellent SDR back end and the only radio to touch this has been the Kenwood 890S which has a very elaborate H mixer stage then the roofing filters but what they call the sdr section is really an elaborate DSP chip set but the Yaesu 101D did this on two receiver boards not just one buy using there combo Superhet/SDR RX.
I see the new 710 on there pre production literature is bosting a blocking spec of 127db which maybe is the use of 18 bit A/D's but we will see.
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HB9PJT

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Re: Differences in HF Radio's today
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2022, 01:56:48 PM »

With the FT-710 it is 14 bit ADC. In the brochure you can see the ADC type on a picture.

By the way, Rob Sherwood measured 135 dB blocking on the FT-1000MP. At the same time in 1996, the mid-priced Kenwood TS-570 had 143 dB blocking. http://www.sherweng.com/table.html

73, Peter - HB9PJT
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KX2T

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Re: Differences in HF Radio's today
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2022, 07:45:35 PM »

BTW Rob measures blocking at at 100Khz which really is way to far from the desired frequency, todays standards are at 2Khz 5Khz and 20Khz which mean more on how the radio can handle close in signals for someone who likes chasing DX on a packed band full of signals or a contester. Back then the ARRL lab was testing at 20Khz and like the Sherwood numbers they just give a number greater than >135 which was Rob's measurement at 100Khz and the ARRL lab numbers were greater than 140db at 20Khz and with both numbers those were with the Pre Amp stage engaged, place the IPO button on and these numbers would get better.
The Sherwood list is a good snapshot of what some radio's do well but those close in numbers have way more meaning than 100Khz off center but todays radio's especial the higher end models have far better performance and the FTDX10 is just one example of a really good performers that is in the midrange of pricing as radio's go today. The Blocking numbers of the FTDX10 trump many full SDR radio's by 20db, that is a decent jump in that area alone along with many other aspects like RMDR and 3rd order IMD. I don't think the 570 would be able to compete or even the 20 plus year old MP's.
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AE0Q

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Re: Differences in HF Radio's today
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2022, 01:04:22 PM »

I don't think the 570 would be able to compete or even the 20 plus year old MP's.

The 570 "Compete" with what?  Or how? The average ham these days is using an HF vertical, or a dipole, or if he is lucky a medium tower and a 3 or 4 element tribander.  Given any of these fairly low-gain antennas, almost ANY HF radio can handle being used on the bands today, even in a contest.

If you have a big tower with stacks of yagis for various bands, then sure, the difference between 70 dB and 105 dB of Dynamic Range will make a difference in what you can copy easily in a crowded contest band, without struggling with overload. 
But for most hams any radio made in the last 30 years with an optional filter or two can easily handle signals on the bands.  The transmitted power limit is the same, there aren't any more hams on the air, and the bands are the same size.

The absolute top rcvr dynamic range is an interesting engineering specification, but hardly something necessary for most hams to "worry" about when picking an HF radio.

Glenn AE0Q
« Last Edit: October 09, 2022, 01:26:22 PM by AE0Q »
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VE7DQ

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Re: Differences in HF Radio's today
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2022, 03:49:25 PM »

<quote>The absolute top rcvr dynamic range is an interesting engineering specification, but hardly something necessary for most hams to "worry" about when picking an HF radio.<unquote>

Yet... many do.   ::)
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W1VT

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Re: Differences in HF Radio's today
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2022, 04:14:25 PM »

Those huge shortwave broadcast stations are gone.  They have been replaced by the Internet.  Why spend a fortune on a distribution method that offers almost no feedback into the quality or effectiveness of your advertising and content?
Many stations now have noise issues that significantly reduce the needed dynamic range of a receiver.
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K1VSK

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Re: Differences in HF Radio's today
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2022, 07:04:39 AM »

<quote>The absolute top rcvr dynamic range is an interesting engineering specification, but hardly something necessary for most hams to "worry" about when picking an HF radio.<unquote>

Yet... many do.   ::)

And, as we see here, write volumes differentiating how many angels can fit on a pin as though it makes any difference.
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K7JQ

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Re: Differences in HF Radio's today
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2022, 10:12:51 AM »

<quote>The absolute top rcvr dynamic range is an interesting engineering specification, but hardly something necessary for most hams to "worry" about when picking an HF radio.<unquote>

Yet... many do.   ::)

And, as we see here, write volumes differentiating how many angels can fit on a pin as though it makes any difference.

Yup...other than bragging rights, is it *really* gonna get you more QSO's than a radio with a little less impressive numbers? Paralysis by analysis ;).
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