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Author Topic: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.  (Read 1746 times)

VE7RF

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Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« on: September 06, 2022, 04:54:19 PM »

You won't blow this thing up anytime soon.

10 kw CCS on  50-52 mhz.  Updated video's will come out every few days.  Total completion time is  7-9 days.  New  16 kva  CCS plate xfmr in lower box...along with the new  79 amp fil xfmr. + variac for fil xfmr.  Teflon  Chimney is made by ICA manufacturing..and is slightly over .5" thick.
The pair of  green chassis jacks for the fil wiring is like 100+ amp banana jacks.  EBM Papst blower in lower box.  330 cfm @ .9" pressure.  On paper, it will provide for 7.2 kw CCS anode dissipation with a 40 deg C inlet air temp......and 8 kw  with  a 25 deg C (77F) inlet air temp.    It will be driven by an  ALS-1306.   It uses an L-PI output network.... + 1/4 wave shorted stub on inside of RF deck, for both more  even harmonic suppression and also used to grnd the tank..instead of the usual RF safety choke across the vac load cap. 
Stay tuned. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=Hbbopn_dTDI
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K6AER

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2022, 06:59:25 PM »

Thought you guys were limited to 2200 watts.
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KB6DYA

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2022, 07:16:17 PM »

This is proof that that the guy having this bulit has more money than brains- CB mentality, I got more power than you ??
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VE7RF

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2022, 07:33:09 PM »

Thought you guys were limited to 2200 watts.

It's not for me.  I just designed it...that and the HF versions as well.   That's what the client wants.  That's what they get.
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SWMAN

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2022, 08:13:57 PM »

  Oh ! 😏
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VR2AX

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2022, 02:12:00 AM »

You won't blow this thing up anytime soon.

I rather think the boot will be on the other foot.

Any data on PA efficiency at reduced drive?
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KB8VUL

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2022, 04:32:54 AM »

To the nay-sayers, this is where TUBE amps are going.  And with a life expectancy of 30K hours of continuous operation, if the new owner is 30 years old he will never need to replace the tube in his lifetime.  The only down side to doing this is the high current draw of the filament and the related electric bill. 
As stated, that tube costs LESS than an 8877 and is a common transmitting tube for broadcast which means there will be availability for some time.  Where we may see the 8877 disappear in the next few years. 
While I prefer the 4CX3000 tube for HF, 6 and VHF, this design is still viable.  And we have no idea where this is going.  While we in the states are limited to 1500 watts, some countries do not limit their ham operators to that power level. 

And another consideration is that power supply. 
The end user may have plans as they have the money to build other RF decks for other frequency bands that could also use that power supply. 
That would require tubes with similar plate and filament voltages.  So this may be the start of a number of RF decks with a shared supply. 

Tubes for ham power levels are going away.  And the prices for them are an indication that it's already happening.  And dumping the thousands of dollars into a legal limit HF amp, which is the only band readily available at legal limit (which Ameritron TUBE amp does 1500 on 6 or VHF??) Broadcast level stuff is going to be the only option.  And just because it's able to FAR exceed the 'legal' limit doesn't mean it has to.  How many 'performance ' cars are out there that have never seen 100 plus MPH that are able to do twice that?  Those are commonly available, and in truth your wifes minivan will probably do 100 anyway. Far more than the legal limit in the states.  This is the reality of things now.  Just like no code licenses.  And I doubt that it's going to be the downfall of ham radio.  Contrary to the claims we had when the code requirement was sunset back in the day.
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VE7RF

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2022, 04:55:15 AM »

You won't blow this thing up anytime soon.

I rather think the boot will be on the other foot.

Any data on PA efficiency at reduced drive?

Not yet..not for 6m. The usual procedure  is if you want to run reduced drive ( = reduced plate current..and reduced PO) the B+ is also reduced.  Done that way, the plate load Z stays the same..and eff also stays the same. By using several taps, several PO levels are easily obtained.

On HF amps, where there is more wiggle room, the tank can be designed for a lower Q  when driven hard.  Then with reduced drive, tank Q increases to 'normal' .  Eff stays the same.

The issue with upper HF...and esp 6m is.... the tube C is 24.5 pf...which rises to 42 pf when plugged into the grid ring...then add another 5-7 pf  from rear / sidewall / top lid, etc.  Loaded tank Q ends up way too high.  The fix is a small value coil between plate block cap assy...and C1 Vac tune cap.   The tube C and extra coil form a step down L network. Steps the plate load Z down low enough that a 'normal' PI net can be built, with a lot lower loaded tank Q.

On 6m, the value of the extra coil and main coil are extremely critical..with zero wiggle room.   (Like .1 uh..and .15 uh).   Plate load Z gets stepped down from 1042 ohms...down to just  356 ohms.  Copper strap coils are being used for both coils....they are a lot easier to wind  vs  5/8"  OD tubing.   ( 2 turns of 1" wide cu strap, on a 2.0" ID).
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VE7RF

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2022, 08:29:45 AM »

To the nay-sayers, this is where TUBE amps are going.  And with a life expectancy of 30K hours of continuous operation, if the new owner is 30 years old he will never need to replace the tube in his lifetime.  The only down side to doing this is the high current draw of the filament and the related electric bill. 
As stated, that tube costs LESS than an 8877 and is a common transmitting tube for broadcast which means there will be availability for some time.  Where we may see the 8877 disappear in the next few years. 
While I prefer the 4CX3000 tube for HF, 6 and VHF, this design is still viable.  And we have no idea where this is going.  While we in the states are limited to 1500 watts, some countries do not limit their ham operators to that power level. 

And another consideration is that power supply. 
The end user may have plans as they have the money to build other RF decks for other frequency bands that could also use that power supply. 
That would require tubes with similar plate and filament voltages.  So this may be the start of a number of RF decks with a shared supply. 

Tubes for ham power levels are going away.  And the prices for them are an indication that it's already happening.  And dumping the thousands of dollars into a legal limit HF amp, which is the only band readily available at legal limit (which Ameritron TUBE amp does 1500 on 6 or VHF??) Broadcast level stuff is going to be the only option.  And just because it's able to FAR exceed the 'legal' limit doesn't mean it has to.  How many 'performance ' cars are out there that have never seen 100 plus MPH that are able to do twice that?  Those are commonly available, and in truth your wifes minivan will probably do 100 anyway. Far more than the legal limit in the states.  This is the reality of things now.  Just like no code licenses.  And I doubt that it's going to be the downfall of ham radio.  Contrary to the claims we had when the code requirement was sunset back in the day.

I went through all of this with Ted Henry and his brother, back in 1990.   Back then, a brand new Eimac 3CX-3000A7 was a mere $50.00  more than a brand new  Eimac (throwaway) 8877.    The 3x3 tube has superb IMD..off the charts at -59 db pep for IMD3 (5 kw pep out).   The 3x3 with 50 watts of drive does 1.5 kw out. The joke is, you can use the   225 watt
 CCS grid as a dummy load for your FT-1000D.   It's virtually bomb proof.  And the 3x3 can be rebuilt till hell freezes over (for aprx  1/2 the price of a new tube).  Dead  easy to cool .  50 ohm input Z.  Fil sucks 50 amps @ 7.5 vac...and less with reduced fil V. Any residual heat is just free heat. In hot wx, the hot air exhaust is routed to the outside.

Typ the fil V is reduced by 10% (after being run at 200 hrs at rated vac).  Emission increases by a bunch during the 1st 200 hrs, then levels off...at which point the fil V is reduced, either  till PO just drops off, or fil V is reduced by 15%.  Those  3x6 amps I designed back in 2005 are still running..and still have 6.3 vac on their  7.0 vac rated cathode cathode. (an hr meter was installed on the input of the variac).  It's got something like 8700 hrs on it.   We will all be dead and gone by the time it requires a rebuild.   The secret is controlling the fil V.  Some will use a combo of step starting the cathode + the pre-set variac.   I use the variac only..and slowly bring the tube up to desired vac..( and current goes  0-1-2-3-4-5...50 amps... no surge).   If you just slam on the fil V, the typ fil xfmr is fully capable of supply 2-3-4 times the rated current.   I'm  99% convinced that is the cause of most grid to cathode shorts...since thoriated tungsten cathodes typ have a cold resistance of 1/10 to  1/12 the hot resistance.

Plenty of vac tune + load caps on the surplus / used market.  Copper tubing is still cheap in the plumbing section of any home-depot / lowes.   Simple to silver plate too.  Pi tuned input-  tube -  Pi output.  Simple bias. Simple metering. Add the B+ supply, and some vac TR relays..and a box / small rack..done.   No rocket science.   FT-8,  RTTY, who cares. Put a brick on the key and go on holidays if you want.    Now we can get digital turns counters in various colors (green /red / blue) .  Ditto with air variables + built in 6:1  vernier reduction drives.   You can complicate  it some more with stepir motors and a myriad of pre-sets.  Some will remote the amp next door in the shop / garage / basement.... then control it from the shack via a control console...complete with metering.

There is nothing to repair, cuz there is nothing to blow up.  Lately, I have been using small 3M filters on the intake. Then zero dust, nothing to clean.  (and they are N97 rated).   No myriad of relay switched  2 kw  LP filters  required either.  Nor an automatic 2 kw rated ant tuner..with loads of  pre-sets.  Flip side is, you have to build it..and that requires some tools.  Amplifier building is 90% metal work.   I bought a 10 ton hydraulic punch kit from HF (which also accepts my green lee punches).  Making holes is fast.    Small, modified drill press, metal cutting vert / horz bandsaw, various hand tools..and a roper whitney hand punch kit ( + a bigger bench punch).   Green lee makes a combo drill + tap..so you can now drill and tap, all in one motion...for normal screw sizes, like 2-56, 4-40, 6-32, 8-32, 10-24, 10-32, 12-24, 1/4-20..and 1/4-28.  With the right tools, it speeds things up very  fast.   Want 4 x identical meter holes across the front panel...bam done.

Dr Alex still has mountains of surplus gear on his site..and he's shipping every day.   Some of the hb amps on his FB page are beyond ingenious. Many are using surplus vac relays, instead of a bandswitch to change bands...fast like.    I have taps galore on both the primary + secondary on my dahl xfmr..so can obtain any B+ voltage I want....on the fly.   Tube type doesn't enter into the equation anymore.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2022, 08:36:02 AM by VE7RF »
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KD9IQO

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  • Posts: 75
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2022, 08:50:55 AM »

I think it is wonderful, that as Amateur Radio Operators, we can experiment with (and build) new designs.  In fact, we are charged with that very purpose.  Yeah...........I think I read that somewhere. ;)   
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VR2AX

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2022, 09:50:17 AM »

You won't blow this thing up anytime soon.

I rather think the boot will be on the other foot.

Any data on PA efficiency at reduced drive?

Not yet..not for 6m. The usual procedure  is if you want to run reduced drive ( = reduced plate current..and reduced PO) the B+ is also reduced.  Done that way, the plate load Z stays the same..and eff also stays the same. By using several taps, several PO levels are easily obtained.

On HF amps, where there is more wiggle room, the tank can be designed for a lower Q  when driven hard.  Then with reduced drive, tank Q increases to 'normal' .  Eff stays the same.

The issue with upper HF...and esp 6m is.... the tube C is 24.5 pf...which rises to 42 pf when plugged into the grid ring...then add another 5-7 pf  from rear / sidewall / top lid, etc.  Loaded tank Q ends up way too high.  The fix is a small value coil between plate block cap assy...and C1 Vac tune cap.   The tube C and extra coil form a step down L network. Steps the plate load Z down low enough that a 'normal' PI net can be built, with a lot lower loaded tank Q.

On 6m, the value of the extra coil and main coil are extremely critical..with zero wiggle room.   (Like .1 uh..and .15 uh).   Plate load Z gets stepped down from 1042 ohms...down to just  356 ohms.  Copper strap coils are being used for both coils....they are a lot easier to wind  vs  5/8"  OD tubing.   ( 2 turns of 1" wide cu strap, on a 2.0" ID).

Interesting. I wonder where you pitch the plate load Z design point, ssb average, or peak/cw key down or what? I have a 3000D deck 13.56 that one day I plan to develop, although for what I have not decided.
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KD6VXI

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2022, 11:45:44 AM »

You design the plate Z for the PEP out. 

Then you adjust B+ to get you the Pout you want.  This will increase efficiency vs just lowering the drive.  As you lower drive level, keeping B+ the same, the Q goes through the roof, increasing heating of components, lowering bandwidth, etc.

Dropping the B+ keeps operating Z the same as designed for.

I have 3, 3.5 and 4kv taps on my Dahl.  I typically run the 3x3 and the 4x5k at 6.4 kv unloaded, 6.1kv loaded.

--Shane
WP2ASS / ex KD6VXI
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VR2AX

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Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2022, 12:23:58 PM »

Thanks, I have a Dahl with 2.3 and. 3, appreciate. 73
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KB8VUL

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  • Posts: 654
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2022, 03:34:35 PM »

To the nay-sayers, this is where TUBE amps are going.  And with a life expectancy of 30K hours of continuous operation, if the new owner is 30 years old he will never need to replace the tube in his lifetime.  The only down side to doing this is the high current draw of the filament and the related electric bill. 
As stated, that tube costs LESS than an 8877 and is a common transmitting tube for broadcast which means there will be availability for some time.  Where we may see the 8877 disappear in the next few years. 
While I prefer the 4CX3000 tube for HF, 6 and VHF, this design is still viable.  And we have no idea where this is going.  While we in the states are limited to 1500 watts, some countries do not limit their ham operators to that power level. 

And another consideration is that power supply. 
The end user may have plans as they have the money to build other RF decks for other frequency bands that could also use that power supply. 
That would require tubes with similar plate and filament voltages.  So this may be the start of a number of RF decks with a shared supply. 

Tubes for ham power levels are going away.  And the prices for them are an indication that it's already happening.  And dumping the thousands of dollars into a legal limit HF amp, which is the only band readily available at legal limit (which Ameritron TUBE amp does 1500 on 6 or VHF??) Broadcast level stuff is going to be the only option.  And just because it's able to FAR exceed the 'legal' limit doesn't mean it has to.  How many 'performance ' cars are out there that have never seen 100 plus MPH that are able to do twice that?  Those are commonly available, and in truth your wifes minivan will probably do 100 anyway. Far more than the legal limit in the states.  This is the reality of things now.  Just like no code licenses.  And I doubt that it's going to be the downfall of ham radio.  Contrary to the claims we had when the code requirement was sunset back in the day.

I went through all of this with Ted Henry and his brother, back in 1990.   Back then, a brand new Eimac 3CX-3000A7 was a mere $50.00  more than a brand new  Eimac (throwaway) 8877.    The 3x3 tube has superb IMD..off the charts at -59 db pep for IMD3 (5 kw pep out).   The 3x3 with 50 watts of drive does 1.5 kw out. The joke is, you can use the   225 watt
 CCS grid as a dummy load for your FT-1000D.   It's virtually bomb proof.  And the 3x3 can be rebuilt till hell freezes over (for aprx  1/2 the price of a new tube).  Dead  easy to cool .  50 ohm input Z.  Fil sucks 50 amps @ 7.5 vac...and less with reduced fil V. Any residual heat is just free heat. In hot wx, the hot air exhaust is routed to the outside.

Typ the fil V is reduced by 10% (after being run at 200 hrs at rated vac).  Emission increases by a bunch during the 1st 200 hrs, then levels off...at which point the fil V is reduced, either  till PO just drops off, or fil V is reduced by 15%.  Those  3x6 amps I designed back in 2005 are still running..and still have 6.3 vac on their  7.0 vac rated cathode cathode. (an hr meter was installed on the input of the variac).  It's got something like 8700 hrs on it.   We will all be dead and gone by the time it requires a rebuild.   The secret is controlling the fil V.  Some will use a combo of step starting the cathode + the pre-set variac.   I use the variac only..and slowly bring the tube up to desired vac..( and current goes  0-1-2-3-4-5...50 amps... no surge).   If you just slam on the fil V, the typ fil xfmr is fully capable of supply 2-3-4 times the rated current.   I'm  99% convinced that is the cause of most grid to cathode shorts...since thoriated tungsten cathodes typ have a cold resistance of 1/10 to  1/12 the hot resistance.

Plenty of vac tune + load caps on the surplus / used market.  Copper tubing is still cheap in the plumbing section of any home-depot / lowes.   Simple to silver plate too.  Pi tuned input-  tube -  Pi output.  Simple bias. Simple metering. Add the B+ supply, and some vac TR relays..and a box / small rack..done.   No rocket science.   FT-8,  RTTY, who cares. Put a brick on the key and go on holidays if you want.    Now we can get digital turns counters in various colors (green /red / blue) .  Ditto with air variables + built in 6:1  vernier reduction drives.   You can complicate  it some more with stepir motors and a myriad of pre-sets.  Some will remote the amp next door in the shop / garage / basement.... then control it from the shack via a control console...complete with metering.

There is nothing to repair, cuz there is nothing to blow up.  Lately, I have been using small 3M filters on the intake. Then zero dust, nothing to clean.  (and they are N97 rated).   No myriad of relay switched  2 kw  LP filters  required either.  Nor an automatic 2 kw rated ant tuner..with loads of  pre-sets.  Flip side is, you have to build it..and that requires some tools.  Amplifier building is 90% metal work.   I bought a 10 ton hydraulic punch kit from HF (which also accepts my green lee punches).  Making holes is fast.    Small, modified drill press, metal cutting vert / horz bandsaw, various hand tools..and a roper whitney hand punch kit ( + a bigger bench punch).   Green lee makes a combo drill + tap..so you can now drill and tap, all in one motion...for normal screw sizes, like 2-56, 4-40, 6-32, 8-32, 10-24, 10-32, 12-24, 1/4-20..and 1/4-28.  With the right tools, it speeds things up very  fast.   Want 4 x identical meter holes across the front panel...bam done.

Dr Alex still has mountains of surplus gear on his site..and he's shipping every day.   Some of the hb amps on his FB page are beyond ingenious. Many are using surplus vac relays, instead of a bandswitch to change bands...fast like.    I have taps galore on both the primary + secondary on my dahl xfmr..so can obtain any B+ voltage I want....on the fly.   Tube type doesn't enter into the equation anymore.

Here's the hang.  Back in 90 there were still a good number of guys that could construct something of this caliber and not get dead doing it.  Now, not so much.  But of course, Henry is out of the game for the most part and hams have few choices for a GOOD amp.  Ameritron is NEVER gonna build at this level, even if they should.  And FETS are coming down in price, and will do what most of these guys want them to at a price they can afford.  And then there is the mentality that only a CB operator would have an amp for HF with such a high output capability and reliability.  We only can run 1500 watts so why build an amplifier that will do 10K.  And yes, a 3X3 WILL peak at 10K and is run at CCS at 5K as a matter of course in the broadcast arena.  But you knew that.  Problem is that they will sit at 1500 loafing along, as long as the supporting circuitry is up to the task, but no one understands this fact.  And dropping a brink on the key and going on holiday isn't really a good analogy.  Because in a 5K transmitter that is run 24/7 the life expectancy is 35K hours or something to that effect.  So what would that work out to at the reduced 1500 watts of output?  Figure 50K hours, maybe more.  A bit of quick math says that 50K hours is 5.7 years give or take.  Of continuous output.  Now I have come across some long winded operators in my day. But I am yet to see the guy that can breath through his ears and keep yammering on for that long.  Only thing missing on the rating schedule for real transmitting tubes is a ICAS life expectancy rating.  I guess they don't bother because it would be a lifetime. 

Now, yes a solid state box WILL do the same thing and only draw about as much power, and maybe less.  But the solid state box WILL go boom if you overdrive it.  That's the primary way those fail.  And all the ALC and monitoring circuits in the world will NOT prevent it.  High SWR, yep, open load, will cover that too. But drive too much power into a FET and it's gonna go bye bye.  With a tube,  especially a situation like this, your 200 watt radios can't generate enough RF to overdrive a 3X3.  Period.  Most of the commercial broadcast applications have a 3CX250 DRIVING the 3X3 up to 5KW.  So even a 200 watt radio ain't gonna stress it and a 100 watt radio will never get it half way there. 

One of my ham goals is the ability to run full legal on all allocated bands.  And I have started putting things in place to do it. 
The single biggest hurdle is the power supply.  Once you have that it's JUST RF decks for the bands you want to apply the power to, and antenna systems that will deal with the power levels.  And before someone asks, why would I want to be able to spin up 1.5KW on VHF and UHF, simple, EME and because I can.  Why have a 240 foot tower that is all but dedicated to ham use?  Because we can.  Yes, it's extreme, but so is owning one of those wiz bang Icoms that cost more than a house in the 1970's.   Obviously the nay-sayers have little sway on your opinion or mine, as it should be.  But I for one am looking forward to seeing this amp take shape and possibly collaborating on some other projects.
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VE7RF

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  • Posts: 1609
Re: Here's how to build a real deal 6M tube amp.
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2022, 09:46:25 AM »

Ok, here's the 3rd installment of this project.

Here, the socket and chimney are installed.   Due to space constraints, the tube is in the corner.   To get around piling on more stray C ..between side / rear wall..and anode, I had him space the anode 2.5"  away from both.  When the space is say doubled, the C will drop to just 1/4.   Same deal with spacing between stator + rotor plates on an air variable.

Also note, instead of using machine screws to mount the .515" thick chimney to the chassis...threaded studs were used instead.  Studs screwed into the teflon.  Then chimney + studs dropped onto chassis.   It's another way of doing it.  If mounting the chimney to the top lid, it's actually much quicker using the studs. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBIT76-o6tM


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